Aviation museum in Toronto

For anyone interested (Cam?) in how the Iroquois performed up to M2.3 66000ft its most intimate details are laid bare, eg lack of surge margin and possible fixes.

http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20090026499_2009026332.pdf

http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20090026526_2009026767.pdf

Spot on Eric.

A bit like the TSR-2 then?

I seem to recall that one of these ended up in Canada? 😀

A bit like the TSR-2 then? Best not go there.

Canadian here, so am certainly proud of the work that went into the Arrow. I personally am of the opinion it probably would have been one of the best (if not the best) high speed interceptors at that time. Not taking into account radars and such…which of course are an important piece of the picture.

But I also think that….by the time it would have been making it to squadron use…say early ’70’s it was too big, not multirole and flexible as the next gen of aircraft were becoming. From a functionality and strategic necessity perspective it may not have been the wrong decision to axe the program…but from the devastation it did to our aviation (in particular) and high technology (in general) industries, the fallout IMO has never 100% recovered. It should have been built and a small/reduced run completed to preserve the industry and development begun on the next plane.

Hi All,
There was a feature film made not long ago about the Arrow at the end the Arrow flies off but there is no clue as to where it went to so the film obviously lets you decide but like above mentioned various speculations are thrown around but the only people who know are those that where involved in the spiriting away of that magnificent aircraft.

Geoff.:D

That film was one of the most inaccurate films ever made about an historical Canadian subject
Just pure tripe

……….the only people who know are those that where involved in the spiriting away of that magnificent aircraft.

There was no ‘spiriting away’.

Hi All,
There was a feature film made not long ago about the Arrow at the end the Arrow flies off but there is no clue as to where it went to so the film obviously lets you decide but like above mentioned various speculations are thrown around but the only people who know are those that where involved in the spiriting away of that magnificent aircraft.

Geoff.:D

Yes but Peter that doesn’t make a very exciting story! Its far more exciting to say that one was spirited to the U.K for the RAF / aerospace companies to use for some kind of research! The fact that it didn’t have the range to get here and was possibly the most recognisable aircraft on the planet at the time sort of blows holes in any kind of clandestine operation !

The missing arrow was scrapped in the hangar with only the nose section surviving.. Come on folks do some homework please..

A might tetchy,what…I was always told “if you,ve got to resort to swearing you,ve no grasp of the English language”.

Perhaps he,d prefer it to be French…

There is no proof that an Arrow was transferred to the U.K just because two seats turned here! Seats are fairly small -easy to stick in a shipping case and MB in the U.K would undoubtedly have been involved in the development of the Arrow seats alongside their Canadian subsidairy.

Grown-ups don’t throw insults about. Just sayin’. :eagerness:

So what you’re saying is that this Arrow was transferred to the UK, without a single piece of documentation (from either Canada or the UK), a single photograph ever being taken, or a single eyewitness. And then it just vanished into thin air.

Okay, this will be difficult because everyone has been exposed to so many lies about the Arrow for so many years that most people now confuse the myth with reality.

First of all, have any of you aviation experts noticed how the Arrow just keeps on getting better with time? That aircraft is the imaginary version and the first one was a Mach 2+ machine. It was soon followed by a Mach 2.5+ version and then a Mach 3.0+ one. That was followed by, my favorite, the Mach 5.0+ machine that could fly in outer space with the amazing Iroquois bypass turbojet. Apparently that Iroquois was so good it could still breathe in the vacuum of space. [Perhaps I am being overly critical since there is no rule about imaginary aircraft following real physical laws.] The latest one is the slightly slower Mach 3.5 70,000 foot altitude version that some Canadians want to rebuild. Good luck with THAT, Eh!

So which of these imaginary aircraft are you “experts” referring to? They are all familiar to me and so is the real Mach 1.9 machine. That one is pretty boring. It was built, tested, found wanting, and cancelled for sensible reasons of economy [nearly five times the cost of a Voodoo] and performance [two-thirds the range of a Voodoo].

Now, it is common knowledge that six completed Arrows came off the production line. [If you don’t already know that then go do some homework you lazy turd.] Okay, now have you got that? SIX!

Contrary to popular myth these six aircraft were not prototypes but production models made using the Cook Craigie plan. The first five arcraft are usually referred to as Mark 1s and were fitted with P&W J75s. The sixth is referred to as a Mark 2 because it had been fitted with prototype Iroquois engines. One of those engines “threw a blade” and the aircraft’s first flight was delayed. The removable engines are the main difference between the Marks but all six of the completed Arrows were similar production aircraft.

Now for the reason that some sensible people believe an Arrow went missing. In Peter Zuuring’s, “Avro Scrapbook” on page 130 he posts an aerial photograph of five Arrows in various stages of deconstrction. The caption on one photo reads, “The fly-over photos show the cutting up process, from five Arrows on the ground to just one, RL-203.” Okay, got that, FIVE!

So six production Arrows came off the line but only five are known to have been destroyed. Some people with reasonable math skills [not libtards] think this means that one has always been missing. [A few others say two but let’s not go there.] Of course the problem with looking at the photographs is there is little to differentiate the aircraft one from the other. This means there is no easy way to know which aircraft survived.

So a missing Arrow is not something I made up nor am I the first to mention the anomaly of six being built but only five destroyed . Of course nobody had any clue about what happened to the missing Arrow until a Martin Baker ejection seat from one of them turned up recently in the U.K.

This fits very well with what is known about the Arrow. Avro Canada was always wholly British owned and a part of Hawker Siddeley. Avro Canada had many sister companies in the U.K. and since Hawker Siddeley owned them all it should have been no problem to transfer property from any one to another. It also should not have been any problem to transfer the missing Arrow to the RAF either, if they had wanted it.

The reason that finding the Arrow’s MB seat over in the U.K. is fairly good proof of an aircraft transfer is that it was a standard ejection seat made by Martin Baker in Canada. What person in their right mind would ship a used standard Canadian-made Martin Baker seat all the way across the Atlantic to the U.K. where they already had plenty of standard Martin Baker seats?

Methinks we now know where the missing Arrow went.

So why don’t those of you who don’t have clue about what you are talking about just keep quiet and let the grown-ups talk?

You can go to Trenton to see the Halifax and a bunch of other aircraft. I did it by train (two hours) but loved every second of it.
Cees

Murray B.
The Arrow nose section is currently on display in the CASM in Ottawa. The museum also holds the outboard wing sections and an Irroquois engine.
It seems to me that Myths surrounding the Arrow have become more powerful than the history. I’m a volunteer interpreter at CASM and I can tell you that the Arrow remains are by far the most looked for exhibits in the museum. So much for museums wasting tax payers $$$’s on the Arrow.
Regards
Bill

No museum in Canada should be wasting Canadian taxpayers’ money displaying a failed design from wholly British owned Avro Canada. Not only didn’t Canada own the design but the top people at Avro Canada were mostly Commonwealth citizens and not Canadians.

Records show that six production Arrows were made but only five were destroyed in Canada. The nose of one was displayed in Canada for some reason but there is strong evidence that one aircraft was flown to one of Avro Canada’s sister companies in the U.K. It was never put on display in a museum over there but an ejection seat and one of the Iroquois engines did turn up which indicates the aircraft was flown over there and eventually scrapped.

[There are photographs of conformal fuel tanks being fitted to the tail of an Arrow which would be required to fly it across the ocean since the unmodified aircraft’s 1254 nm. ferry range would not have allowed it to reach Iceland.]

You are obviously a bit of an a$$ troll

Not sure what is implied by one of the Iroquois engines did “turn up” in the UK or when but I certainly saw one on an exhibitor’s stand in the big tent at the SBAC show when it was unveiled to the public. I assume it would have returned after the show.

Murray -two Arrow ejection seats did indeed turn up in the U.K . One came out of the RAFM store at Cardington when it closed and another from an unknown source. Its highly likely that these were shipped to MB at Chalgrove for development purposes. There is no evidence to suggest that an Arrow ever came to the U.K.