Typhoon & Pilots

I hope you were writing about the size of your star – or maybe that’s what you call it 🙂

Allan,
It’s that size due to inflation – out of my hands!!! 🙂

Gold Star – over the top!!

Bob

That size gold star is a bit over the top – I didn’t even get awarded one that size way back at primary school, but that was in another century, another millennium even, so perhaps that makes the difference ! 🙁

After I found the picture in the book I spent all my time looking at the pilots, and the letter on the day fighter band, and when you mentioned the “T” it just jumped out on me – especially as I wrote “just a little bit more, like confirmation of TP-T perhaps!?” 🙂

cheers

Allan

The identification of the Typhoon in the photo rests on the ‘T’ (noted by an earlier correspondent) visible on the leading edge. This was a common location for repeat of the individual code letter on Typhoons.

I’ll take a gold star for observation…:D

Hi Andy

Hopefully the information supplied by Cranswick is correct, and we now appear to have a firmed up D-Day from Howard Morley, a man on the spot!

As to the accuracy of TP-T and, possibly, JR197 I have no idea, it appears to be a J on the day fighter band, next to the first white stripe, and not an M or N and, again, Cranswick provides confirmation of JR197?

Zorglub – thanks for the info on Mate Milich.

It seems we are now filling in the gaps with the names of several pilots, the serial number, location and date – just a little bit more, like confirmation of TP-T perhaps!?

Allan

The identification of the Typhoon in the photo rests on the ‘T’ (noted by an earlier correspondent) visible on the leading edge. This was a common location for repeat of the individual code letter on Typhoons.

We are fortunate that 198 Sqn’s ORB is one of the few which (for this period and though to VE-day) quotes serial numbers and codes for operational flights (usually it is one or the other or neither). ‘T’ is identified as JR197 from early June through to the date it is was shot down with the loss of Sqn Ldr I.J.Davies, although recorded as ‘MN197’. It was flown by Davies several times, including twice on D-Day.

However we are fortunate again in that 198 is one of the few units that saved copies of the Form OR101 with its ORB. This was a monthly return on aircraft movements in and out of the unit plus record of damage, loss etc. These forms have proved to be far more accurate than most ORBs in respect of serials. The OR101 for June 1944 records JR197’s loss on 15 June.

The ‘MN’197 error must have been repeated in the signal to the Air Ministry as loss in action on 15 June 44 is recorded on MN197’s Form 78. It later, however, appears in storage at 5 MU and was finally scrapped in September 1946.

This recording on the wrong Form 78 is quite widespread. MN175, mentioned by Zorglub had its loss on 15 June recorded on MN174’s card. Perhaps it was the same dyslexic clerk … on a Friday (?) afternoon?

Can’t add any info, but what a fantastic picture, really encapsulates RAF ground attack force of the era.

Serial MN197 comes from the ORB , but maybe it is wrong . All Typhoons were then reported with MN range .

About MN175 ‘s engine , there were some pictures of the dig on the Sq198 web site years ago .

There are a number of references to Typhoons of 198 Squadron on Youtube.
Including this one on the recovery of the aircraft flown by Flying Officer Hector Henry MacKenzie:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIN_2HGr75g

Turn your volume down !

Anyone notice the “T” painted on the starboard wing leading edge just next to the wing root?

198 Squadron is listed in quite a few of the combat films I’ve watched – FS Morley is among them…

198 Squadron Typhoon – Thorney Island

Hi Andy

Until now I would have to accept the date 15 June 1944 printed in “Fighter Command 1939 – 1945” and also the statement “at a forward tactical airforce base” as 198 Squadron did not move to the continent until 1 July to B.10 Plumetot with a detachment at Hurn, so Thorney would constitute a forward tactical airforce base at the time. They were at Thorney Island from 30 April 1944 – 18 June 1944, then moving to Funtington, so the 6th or 15th June dates fit perfectly (RAF Squadrons – Jefford)

Hopefully the information supplied by Cranswick is correct, and we now appear to have a firmed up D-Day from Howard Morley, a man on the spot!

As to the accuracy of TP-T and, possibly, JR197 I have no idea, it appears to be a J on the day fighter band, next to the first white stripe, and not an M or N and, again, Cranswick provides confirmation of JR197?

Zorglub – thanks for the info on Mate Milich.

It seems we are now filling in the gaps with the names of several pilots, the serial number, location and date – just a little bit more, like confirmation of TP-T perhaps!?

Allan

Hi Zorglub,

Do you have any photo’s of the found Napier engine please.

Andy

There is a discussion on Wings Over NZ about the difficultly of finding (part-)Maori aircrew based on name alone.

http://rnzaf.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=Wartime&thread=17780&page=1

Photos help a lot!

Google lead to http://www.flickr.com/photos/fgdvcappellen/1180284051/ and a mention in the Official history.
http://nzetc.victoria.ac.nz/tm/scholarly/tei-WH2-2RAF-c12.html#n355

Note that there are significant numbers of Yugoslav (many Dalmatian) settlers in Northland (North Auckland Province), so the Croat/Maori marriage is by no means unusual.

The two pilots standing on the left are (from the left) Sgt J.S.Madgett and F/Sgt Howard Morley. I met Howard in the late 80s when he was an estate agent in Guildford; he had this photo on his office wall and said it was taken on D-Day itself.

The Typhoon is JR197, one of the many Typhoons modified with a sliding hood and RP fittings in the weeks before D-day (in this case by Cunliffe Owen at Eastleigh).

Zorglub

The original caption on the reverse of my print reads:

“Visit to a Typhoon Squadron at a forward tactical airforce base. Picture shows: Pilots of a Typhoon squadron in front of their rocket projectile carrying ‘plane, resting between shuttle-service raids on enemy strongpoints.”

There is no date on my period print, but Allan may be able to elaborate/clarify?

Hi Andy ,

If the picture is dated 15 June 1944 , that is very interesting . That day F/Sgt Edward Bartley was killed on a R/P mission aboard MN175 TP-U . Maybe he is one of them ? In 2004 we have investigated the crash-site and found the Napier engine , unfortunately he was killed bailing out too low after being hit by flak .
Just to add that TP-T was then MN197 , flown that day on the same mission by S/Ldr Davies DFC .

Zorglub

Thank you both!

The background (distant hills) had made me suspect Thorney Island, but I had not traced any other details.

It will be good to name the other pilots.

F/O Mate Milich , kia 8 Dec. 1944 , so Sq 198 pilots .
More on Milich here :

http://muse.aucklandmuseum.com/databases/cenotaph/RecordDetail.aspx?OriginalID=27663&SearchID=1071461&processed=true&Ordinal=3

Zorglub

Mystery Typhoon & Squadron – no longer a mystery

Hi Andy

Pretty easy this one with a little research into my archive – “Typhoon pilots of No. 198 Squadron at Thorney Island, 15 June 1944. 2nd TAF had 18 Squadrons of Typhoons available for the invasion – 11 rocket firing and seven bomb carrying. By mid-June they were using ALGs in Normandy to re-arm and refuel, and by the end of the month many had made a permanent move to France. The aircraft, coded TP-T is possibly JR197, which was shot down by flak near Cherbourg on 22 June, killing Squadron Leader Ian Davies.”

HU 86371 found in Fighter Command 1939 – 1945 (photographs from the IWM) by Ian Carter – page 130.

I will leave somebody else to name the pilots !!

cheers

Allan

Mystery Typhoon

Hi Andy

Nice picture – 486 Squadron RNZAF had already converted from the Typhoon to the Tempest V earlier in 1944, so not them, as this appears to be D-Day stripes and not the stripes worn previous to that by Typhoons to prevent mis-identification with the Fw190.

Have you tried Dave Homewood dave(underscore)daasnz(at)hotmail(dot)com http://www.cambridgeairforce.org.nz/ or Errol Martyn errol(dot)martyn(at)xtra(dot)co(dot)nz who are both authorities in the RNZAF in WW2, so the possible Maori might well help.

What clues are on the reverse – and have you already checked the IWM website to save me/others time?

cheers

Allan