Why are Buccaneers,Harriers,Lightnings not allowed to fly in the UK?

The CAA classifies ex-military aircraft into three categories:

a) Simple: single piston engine types.
b) Intermediate: multiple piston engine or turbine (single or multiple) engine types with simple mechanical flying controls or with powered controls having an independent back-up system that can enable continued safe flight following failure of the powered system.
c) Complex: all other types, including those having features that require specialised knowledge and/or equipment to maintain, aircraft without independent back-up systems for powered flying controls or having automatic stabilisation systems or electronic engine controls.

The first two categories are relatively easy to get onto a Permit to Fly, but the Complex category is the one which requires continued airworthiness design support from the manufacturer or an equivalent organisation. At this moment the Vulcan is the only Complex type which has managed to get over this hurdle. In this case they transferred this support from BAe to (IIRC) Marshall’s.

For the interested, have a read of chapter A8-20 (para 1.2.1.) and Supplement 1 and 2 to A8-20 in this document: http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP553.PDF

Dees – Yes my mistake ! I can quote myself from back in 2009 on the same subject!

Effectively what the water does is cool the combustion gas and the turbine rotor and stators . This means that the engine speed can be increased for a given turbine entry temperature . This has the effect of maintaining turbine blade temps within JPTL and increasing thrust.
The use of water is directly linked to outside air temperature – recovering onboard a Harrier will use water -cold weather will determine whether it carries water or not.

So aft of the combustion the water is added.

No Fly!!!!!

With regard to the reason that the various a/c. above are not allowed to fly on the civil register in the UK. I would imagine that it is down to the CAA being ultra cautious. Requiring manufactures back up.

In view of most of these a/c type builders being long gone, this is the CAA get out.

However years ago when a certain B Pover in Plymouth was attempting to fly Lightnings in this country the CAA put the block on it unless the fuel lines were moved out of the engine bays.

Lightnings to South Africa and flying. Engine bay fire Pilot dead.

End off!!!!

Er…. no :confused:

Getting back on subject, I understood that no super-sonic aircraft were allowed in private hands, hence the ban. Could be wrong but makes sense doesn’t it!

Again, only my understanding, but Methanol isn’t there as part of the power boost, but purely to prevent the water freezing in the tanks and lines.
The Harrier doesn’t use it as the tank is just behind the engine and nice and warm anyway.

Both sort of right and not! The water is sprayed into the extreme rear of the engine aft of the turbine in the combustion air by an item called the spider.

No it isn’t. The water injection is into the combustion cans and HP turbine area. I think you might be getting confused with the JPT spider.

The prime purpose of the water injection system is to cool the turbine stages allowing more fuel to be burnt, a higher RPM to therefore be obtained and hence more thrust.

On the racecar engines with which I’m familiar, and I assume this is also true of Reno racers, water injection is used simply to cool the combustion chamber, as one might intuitively assume, which allows higher boost from turbocharging (on the car engines) without detonation.

I know nothing about how it affect a turbine engine.

Water(+methanol) has been used for many years as an aid to gain power. In my time, Blackburn Beverley’s used it and in general, all car engines ran much better on damp, misty mornings, once you got them started. My very limited knowledge on how this works is, inject water into a confined space and heat it instantaneously. HUGE expansion, weather in a cylinder bore or a jet pipe. With more ‘mass’ trying to get out of that confined space = more power.

Avoid like plague, Resorcinol,

Hey, I built an entire Falco using Resorcinol! Been flying over 15 years, now in Australia on its second Ozzie owner…

G’day folks,

In reference to the original question, I’d have thought that governments don’t want private citizens having the capacity to out-air force the Air Force!

Cheers,
Matt

Methanol or alcohol,
Confuse it not with Cuprinol,
Avoid like plague, Resorcinol,
The result could be colloidial (Spelling apologies)

Actually you said “nasty fuel ” which is wrong on all counts, as there is no methanol on Harrier and its not a fuel as the water does not combust. But there again you got the wrong aircraft type anyway………Still don’t even think about an apology?

In a water methanol system, the methanol has a secondary aspect as to its use, by raising the Turbine Inlet Temperature to its efficiency point (it combusts, and therefore could be classed as a fuel, hence my post), offsetting the effect of the water lowering the temperature. The Water/ Methanol injection system is not in use on the Harrier, as stated elsewhere due to the reservoir being close to the hot section of the exhaust, thus negating the Methanol’s primary task as an anti-freeze. The Harrier’s system compensates by adding more fuel, thus raising TIT to its efficiency level with an increased mass flow of air.

I am unsure of where your second paragraph fits in to the conversation.

If you must miss-quote me, at least make it funny or engaging. As I said, it was posted on a bad day and I was thinking of something different anyway – something I have already apologised for.

I didn’t say powerful, I said ‘nasty’. Have a swig of methanol with your water….. :diablo:

Actually you said “nasty fuel ” which is wrong on all counts, as there is no methanol on Harrier and its not a fuel as the water does not combust. But there again you got the wrong aircraft type anyway………Still don’t even think about an apology?

I’ve never seen a water injection system inject water anywhere other than aft of the low pressure turbine. David’s description of how water injection works is the correct one in my experience on all the engine types I’ve seen. Please advise of a type with a fwd water injection system as I would like to check it out.

Both sort of right and not! The water is sprayed into the extreme rear of the engine aft of the turbine in the combustion air by an item called the spider. This alters the volume of the air coming out of the aft nozzles. That allows the turbine to increase its speed which in turn sucks in more air producing yet more lift.

May be how it works on a Harrier, but on most other engines the water is sprayed at or near the front. The cooling effect is useful too. I told you I oversimplified. :rolleyes:

Hardly seems pedant-ish for someone to question your implying that water-injection systems utilize some powerful fuel…even if they weren’t aware that you were actually confusing water injection with a system that is used to run an emergency power unit.

I didn’t say powerful, I said ‘nasty’. Have a swig of methanol with your water….. :diablo:

Thanks for the education chaps…basically it does the same job as an intercooler, or why a car engine performs slighty better on a cold day etc etc…..Thanks for explaining!!

An awareness and fear of potential litigation connected to product liability problems is one of the prime objections raised by the Type Certificate and Design Authority holders.

Both sort of right and not! The water is sprayed into the extreme rear of the engine aft of the turbine in the combustion air by an item called the spider. This alters the volume of the air coming out of the aft nozzles. That allows the turbine to increase its speed which in turn sucks in more air producing yet more lift.

Short way of explaining water injection

Injecting water cools the air. Cool air takes up less volume for a given mass than warm air. Big fans on the front of an engine suck in air by volume, and if the air is cooler you get more mass for a given volume. One of Newton’s laws of motion says that every action has an equal and opposite reaction (and that works on mass not volume), so if you can suck a greater mass of air into your engine you get more thrust out the other end.

Cue someone to point out where I’ve oversimplified…