Have you forgotten yet?

Kev35 thanks for you post

VJ day was always and still is big in our household, my late father was Fourth Marine Division and fought in several campaigns in the Pacific. His time in the war was horrific for sure. Thanks for your thoughts here Kev35, indeed a hard and brutal stuggle for sure. No quater was offered or given according to my father. A salute to all the men & women who fought to end this aggression in that horrible war !

BlueNoser352

If you’ve still got the hump about the buck stopping before it got to Emperor Showa, then you should – like I said before – blame Douglas MacArthur. However, it seems his plan might well have been the right one in the long run – or at least as far as we can tell so far. Japan was a useful bit of strategic land, and its regeneration was a handy workshop for the prosecution of coming battles…

I think perhaps here we are beginning to read from the same page. I believe you are right that his plan has worked out so far, but whether by accident or design I guess we’ll never know. I’m currently reading the Behr book on Emperor Hirohito, I guess I could do with reading more on MacArthur.

Regards,

kev35

From Wikipedia:

Some 3.3 million Soviet POWs died in Nazi custody, out of 5.7 million. This figure represents a total of 57% of all Soviet POWs…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_crimes_against_Soviet_POWs

Surely though the Greater East Asian Co-prosperity Sphere merely replaced one form of oppressive colonialism with another, even harsher reality?

Again, I agree. It seems that my uncle thought that one was God-given right, and the other was a “bl**dy abomination”. Neither seemed to pay much thought to the rights of the locals.

Look just a few posts up for Scott Marlee’s account of a veteran talking about “keeping them out of our country”, as though the Japanese army was planning to cycle down Pall Mall. Actually we were trying to keep them off our own conquests.

I know we’re straying dangerously off topic, and I know what I am about to ask has been discussed before by us and at some length. However, I would be interested to hear your view on the following.

I suspect you subscribe to the theory that Emperor Hirohito was nothing more than a puppet manipulated by the Armed Forces whilst I subscribe to the theory that he was complicit to all decisions made by Japanese Armed Forces during the war. In fact I believe a member of his own family was the architect of the Rape of Nanking. By the by, it is the following quote by Hideki Tojo at the IMTFE which I am interested in….. “I further wish to add that there is no Japanese subject who could go against the will of His Majesty, more particularly among high officials of the Japanese government or of Japan “

Isn’t that proof positive, from none other than the former Prime Minister, that the Emperor was indeed aware of and party to the actions of the Armed Forces of Japan?

I think you may have misjudged me again. I would not say that Emperor Showa was just a puppet being manipulated by the military, but I would not say that he was totally in control of anything either. I’m afraid the situation wasn’t – indeed still isn’t – all that simple when it comes to the Chrysanthemum Throne. Especially so in the first half of the 20th C.
Tojo’s quote brings a wry grin to my face, as he’s right – of course – but also there will have been a thousand shades of grey that were lost in translation. What exactly was “…the will of His Majesty…”?

I very much suspect that the “Rape of Nanking” ( that very emotive name already a piece of useful propaganda ) was planned to the extent that the atrocities were actually part of the design. More likely it was the result of middle rank fervour – based on the idea that the Chinese were some kind of ‘Untermensch’ – that just ran away with itself. The perpetrators of these atrocities were brought up in a regime that told them they were superior. Disgusting, but it sounds familiar…

If you’ve still got the hump about the buck stopping before it got to Emperor Showa, then you should – like I said before – blame Douglas MacArthur. However, it seems his plan might well have been the right one in the long run – or at least as far as we can tell so far. Japan was a useful bit of strategic land, and its regeneration was a handy workshop for the prosecution of coming battles…

One thing that came through to me from my discussions with my uncle was the very apparent bitterness, first at being forgotten, but secondly his feeling that the whole thing had been a huge waste of time. Very sad, but he was – like so many others – just a bit part player in a huge geo-political game.

I can’t find the figures now but I think the death rate among Allied (excluding Russian) PoW’s of the German was around four per cent. Contrasting markedly with the 27 per cent death rate amongst Allied prisoners of the Japanese. I doubt any legitimate figure could be calculated either by German prisoners of Russia or vice versa as I suspect records were not kept.

Regards,

kev35

Perhaps Creaking Door means the treatment of Soviet prisoners by the Germans.

Exactly my point. Although it would be tempting to select an individual act of unnecessary brutality as a yardstick, I think if we try to quantify the overall suffering (if it is even possible), then Nazi Germany, not Japan, is the worst offender against POWs. Soviet Russia may come in second place.

POW folklore is well known in the UK, mainly through books, film and TV but it (naturally) concentrates on British, or Allied, POWs; the treatment of the POWs of other nations could be quite different.

For example, until recently I hadn’t realised that Polish POWs were not allowed a ‘protecting power’ (such as Switzerland) by the Germans…

…the reason being that from 1939, according to Germany, Poland did not exist as a country.

Surely though the Greater East Asian Co-prosperity Sphere merely replaced one form of oppressive colonialism with another, even harsher reality?

“He had some choice names for the Japanese ( and the Koreans and Chinese too come to that ), but he had some pretty embarrassing names for the indigenous populations of India and Burma too….”

Funnily enough my Uncle didn’t, but I suspect that’s largely because he couldn’t bring himself to speak of his experiences at all.

I know we’re straying dangerously off topic, and I know what I am about to ask has been discussed before by us and at some length. However, I would be interested to hear your view on the following.

I suspect you subscribe to the theory that Emperor Hirohito was nothing more than a puppet manipulated by the Armed Forces whilst I subscribe to the theory that he was complicit to all decisions made by Japanese Armed Forces during the war. In fact I believe a member of his own family was the architect of the Rape of Nanking. By the by, it is the following quote by Hideki Tojo at the IMTFE which I am interested in….. “I further wish to add that there is no Japanese subject who could go against the will of His Majesty, more particularly among high officials of the Japanese government or of Japan “

Isn’t that proof positive, from none other than the former Prime Minister, that the Emperor was indeed aware of and party to the actions of the Armed Forces of Japan?

Still reading and learning. (I can recommend a book called ‘We of Nagasaki’ for first hand accounts of just how horrific it was to be at ground zero.)

Regards,

kev35

I thoroughly agree Oppama, as the focus on the treatment of Allied PoW’s deflects from the earlier excesses of the Armed Forces of Japan in China and their continued excesses against the indigenous populations of the territories ‘liberated’ from the oppression of colonialism during the creation of the Greater East Asian Co-prosperity Sphere.

I agree, but I’d go even further.

The “….’liberated’ from the oppression of colonialism…” bit is noted. It’s an angle that my uncle – a Chindit and FEPOW – didn’t think worthy of any consideration whatsoever. As far as he was concerned, he was fighting a war for his King and Country and the fact that he was doing it in India and Burma didn’t seem to be anything other than quite natural. British Empire.

He had some choice names for the Japanese ( and the Koreans and Chinese too come to that ), but he had some pretty embarrassing names for the indigenous populations of India and Burma too….

I thoroughly agree Oppama, as the focus on the treatment of Allied PoW’s deflects from the earlier excesses of the Armed Forces of Japan in China and their continued excesses against the indigenous populations of the territories ‘liberated’ from the oppression of colonialism during the creation of the Greater East Asian Co-prosperity Sphere.

Regards,

kev35

Funny how this thread gets fewer comments than the annual posting critical of the US dropping the atomic bombs.

I’m sure that is just an indication of how easy (or not) it is to argue an alternative position.

Nobody in the UK (or US) would argue that the treatment of POWs by the Japanese was bad but you may get an argument if you state that the treatment of POWs by the Germans or Russians was worse (which it was).

I certainly haven’t forgotten the men or the sacrifice.

But in the rush of my day job I had completely missed the anniversary.

Ironic, as the day job at the moment is training British chaps to sell Japanese cars.

Thanks Kev

Moggy

i once met a gentleman whilst i was volunteering at NEAM,right next to Nissan’s Car manufacturing plant, it turned out he was a member of 607 Squadron Royal Auxillary Air Force, he was based at Usworth for a time, he then went on with the squadron to fight the Japanese and keep them from our soil etc, he quoted something to me that himself and his RauxAF colleagues firmly believed, ” we went over there and fought them, to keep them away from our country, and they still took over our b*****D airfield”

i know thats not directly related to the subject as such, but it stuck with me, as did the look on his face as he said it

i for one will never forget either

may they rest in peace, and for those who are still suffering to this day (are there many left?) well, i hope they find peace

THE bomb

Funny how this thread gets fewer comments than the annual posting critical of the US dropping the atomic bombs.

I’m a huge fan of Japanese people and culture, but what they did during the war to POWs and occupied civilians went beyond any civil strandards.

I don’t think many people on here condemn the US for dropping the bomb,
I for one don’t, after all it was a weapon developed by scientist from all over
the world, not just the US.