Another missing pilot found?

0110 hrs. 21 Jun 1944 hit top of hill 1,200′, part buried in peat bog, wreckage scattered. One other crew named as Uffz. Werner Stallmann +.
Cameras carried 50 x 30cm, 30 x 30cm and 12.5cm hand held. Very dark green upper, duck egg under. Outer 4′ of under surface of wing painted white. Armament 2 x MG131 and twin MG81 in ventral.

Sunday Post reported in 1976 that flowers were placed on Gefr. Werner Sebisch’s grave every Christmas by his parents.

On 21st June 1944, in the early hours, a German Ju 188F-1, Werke Nr 280608 A6+HH came down on the hill around 2 miles to the NW of Rothes. This was a reconnaissance aircraft based in Norway and it lost an engine, which came down 1/4 of a mile away. It was scattered wreckage that was found, some time later, with the crew dead. The crew, Fw F. Schanze, Oblt J. Winne and W. Sebisch are buried in Lossiemouth cemetery.

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Friedrich Schanze in his Flieger uniform. He was the youngest brother of my grandfather.
It is said that he was a young man who had all the time a joke in mind.

rosaria from Germany

http://tvnz.co.nz/national-news/kiwi-spitfire-pilot-laid-rest-in-scotland-5519756

No idea what that means, I have no need to defend myself, not sure what point I’ve missed, but it seems vaguely pompous. Perhaps someone else can explain it to me.

Your missing the point.

Nevermind it is pointless to try and explain what is meant. Far too defensive already and it wouldnt do the memory of this pilot any good on here so will bow out from further discussion with you.

I can think of several wreck sites I’ve been party to that have not been properly researched or caught the interest of the established groups.

Take the Ju 188 that came down near Rothes. Apart from a few disparate pieces of information and misinformation, there was no definitive record of who was involved, when, what and exactly where the incident occured. I’ve helped to put that story to bed.

The same can be said for the Whitley which came down on Ben Aigen. Where were the organised groups? Without involving the MOD or anybody else we quietly and with some dignity and thought restored the memorial built in 1945 by a 3 year old girl and sent her some photos. Sod the MOD and the licences – we did what the lady asked us to do. We found it, we rebuilt it and we respected the memory of the crew.

And who put to bed the story of the Lancaster engine bearers near Rothes?

This isn’t exhaustive, but if the organised groups want to know, who will they be asking?

Below is an article I put into our village paper –

Some time ago I used the Rothesian to enquire if readers had any memories of local wartime aircraft accidents in the Rothes area. I received a number of responses which helped me glean some historical information.

.On 24th September 1940, during a cross country exercise from RAF Kinloss, Whitley P5006 of 19 OTU crashed on Ben Aigen. All on board were killed. The crew consisted of

Flt Sgt C H Ashley
Sgt D S Proudfoot
Sgt N R Foley
Sgt E S Millard
Sgt P H Lucas DFM
Sgt I D S E Hay.

A friend of mine was in contact with Sgt Hays sister, Rhona Hay, who was born after her older brother had died in the accident. Rhona provided a map reference and asked us to take some photos of the cairn at the site which, as a 3 year old, she’d helped her father to build in 1945. We located the accident site in the woods on the north side of the large ravine which runs down the face of the hill. At the site were a few pieces of wreckage and a jumble of mossy rocks which looked as if they had been placed there. We cleaned off the moss and rebuilt the stones into a small cairn, and took some photos which we sent to Rhona. Although there is a cairn on the summit, I’m not sure this is related to the Whitley accident as many hills around here have a cairn on the summit. I think it more likely that the jumble of rocks we found were the remains of the memorial Rhona helped her father to build. It was satisfying to be able to add something to the story of this accident and to provide Rhona with a memento.

On 14th February 1942, Wellington N2825 from 20 OTU based at RAF Lossiemouth took off for night flying practice. Around 2335 hours the aircraft crashed at Drumbain. The accident was attributed to engine failure. Five of the crew were killed and Sgt Burr was found injured. The crew consisted of:

RAF PO Cobb, R E Captain (Pilot)
RAF PO Witter, A S (Pilot)
RAF Sgt H Clark, (Observer)
RAAF 407283 Sgt J Bishop, (Wireless Air Gunner)
RAAF 400344 Sgt J H Goldie, (Wireless Air Gunner)
RAF Sgt N A Burr, (Air Gunner)

Sgt’s Bishop and Goldie, both of The Royal Australian Air Force, are buried in Lossiemouth Cemetery.

On 21st June 1944, in the early hours, a German Ju 188F-1, Werke Nr 280608 A6+HH came down on the hill around 2 miles to the NW of Rothes. This was a reconnaissance aircraft based in Norway and it lost an engine, which came down 1/4 of a mile away. It was scattered wreckage that was found, some time later, with the crew dead. The crew, Fw F. Schanze, Oblt J. Winne and W. Sebisch are buried in Lossiemouth cemetery.

Thanks to everyone who helped. If there are any other wartime aircraft incidents in the vicinity of Rothes that I’ve missed, I’d be very interested to do some further research.

I will continue to pursue my hobby, and I will not feel obliged to ask for permission.

I have to say Stuart that not only the MOD would disagree most amateur enthusiast group would also.

I know most people respect these sites and I can only hope yourself included but it is comments and actions like those that you mention that have resulted in greater paperwork and laws for those who came to the hobby after.

I must admit I’ve never been one to bother with licences, laws or the MOD, but I do respect the sites I’ve visited, and I’ve helped to tie up the loose ends in some local history. Having to jump through hoops would put me off and would possibly mean some human stories would never have been properly documented. There’s still room for the amateur, although the MOD might disagree.

Stuart,

You thoughts are largely the same as mine however it seems it was the police or others that brought about the news reports.

And by the terms of an MOD licence you must report human remains should you find them. So if you or anyone else you knew kept quiet about finding human remains on a dig then that would be breaking the law.

BTW I am not accusing you of anything just pointing out what is listed in a licence and indeed the Protection Of Military Remains Act.

I may be out of order, but this story seems like an overreaction. There is a chance that human remains will be found on a dig. If I found remains which were likely to be associated with the archaeology of the site, and the crew had already been ‘recovered’ and given a burial, I’d keep quiet about it. How does publicising the site and having a team of police officers rooting around preserve the dignity of those whose who lost their lives? I prefer my own private contemplation of those who died there.

STV news report http://local.stv.tv/edinburgh/112712-human-remains-found-in-the-wreckage-of-wwii-spitfire-which-crashed-in-1943/

Couldnt find the BBC report though. Is it just me.

Its been on BBC news and STV now. Scottish regions at least.

Either way not good publicity, sometimes makes you wonder whos watching the spoil when they find the propellor hub and blades from the deepest part of the site shown in the photo before a dig is stopped.

I would have thought that it was good publicity as the remains were found and reported through the correct authorities as far as I can see.

We all know the stories of bodies pushed back into the ground or just left in situ.

Just had a big bit on the STV news. Old film of Hurricanes in flight.

Local museum got in on the action too.

AR403 was a MkV Spit, the prop blades in the BBC photo look like DeHavilland metal blades from a Mk1. Checking CWGC Sgt Malcomb Robertson, named in the article is listed as buried Sec. E. Grave 219. GLASGOW (CRAIGTON) CEMETERY. Pure speculation but could the wrong aircraft have been excavated?

Its possible that even though this was a mk5 it had metal props, there have been several AR serials dug which contained these. Its very unlikely thats is anything other than AR403 given its recorded location

Either way not good publicity, sometimes makes you wonder whos watching the spoil when they find the propellor hub and blades from the deepest part of the site shown in the photo before a dig is stopped.

A wartime recovery does not necessarily mean that 100% of his body was recovered now does it? I would imagine they would recover what they could at the time and bury what the had to let the family grieve.

So many wreck recoveries in the past have been carried out and proved that not all of the pilot was buried at the time. Many unreported recoveries would also show the same details I would think.

What evidence do you have that it was the wrong aircraft apart from the pilots remains.

Interesting…

The photo has been added since I saw the article first, when there was a generic photo of a spit. Intriguing to see the police team all in their paper suits – I wonder whether they are treating it as an exercise in recovering remains in unusual circumstances?

Ian, be warned that I’m about to be gruesome. Given the criteria for defining a body which I THINK was 7lb including evidence that you had bits in there without which life could not be sustained, it’s not impossible that they have the right aircraft, but not a lot of the poor guy was recovered at the time – though a mis-identification of the aircraft concerned is probably the tidier explanation. More than one pilot has two memorials, and I recall coming across something on the internet recently suggesting that one had three. Whether that’s correct or not I don’t know.

Looking at the archaeological register report, I can imagine the worst case scenario… Spitfire crashes into Bronze Age burial cairn… modern and ancient remains intermingled… how on earth would you sort that lot out?

Adrian

AR403 was a MkV Spit, the prop blades in the BBC photo look like DeHavilland metal blades from a Mk1. Checking CWGC Sgt Malcomb Robertson, named in the article is listed as buried Sec. E. Grave 219. GLASGOW (CRAIGTON) CEMETERY. Pure speculation but could the wrong aircraft have been excavated?

http://www.scotborders.gov.uk/directory_record/26177/historical_environment_records

If linked

Spitfire AR403 of 65 Squadon crashed on 16th Jan 1943 at Wedderlie House, near Westruther, Berwickshire.