Heads Up Bomber Boys with Ewan McGregor

A couple more photos which I thought you might find of interest.

These are the two Flak Towers in Hamburg, surveyed by No. 6 Flak Disarmament Troop, Royal Artillery in 1946.

The top photo shows Flakturm IV in Heiligengeistfeld and the lower is Flakturm V in Wilhelmsburg.

The Flak Towers are in the background, the nearer buildings being the Fire Control Towers housing the radar etc.

The Towers had a mixture of 128 mm, 37 mm and 20 mm guns, plus Air Raid Shelter space for up to 10,000.

Both F.C. Towers were demolished after the war but both Flak Towers remain, the one in Heiligengeistfeld becoming a night club and music school in recent years, while the one in Wilhemlsburg is derelict. The extent of bomb damage around them is obvious.

The photos are part of a collection I bought a few years ago showing these towers in detail.

There’s a good Wiki article about Germany’s Flak Towers with photos and links to Google Maps etc, here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flak_tower#Flakturm_IV_-_Heiligengeistfeld.2C_Hamburg

Sixty seven years ago tonight.

This seemed to be an appropriate thread for posting this photo which is an original, printed on A.M. paper.

Aircraft “J” of 218 Sq. Chedburgh, flown by Warrant Officer McClennan.

1 x 4,000lb. H.C. bomb and 6 “cans” of 4lb. incendiaries.

On the back of the card is written:

“Aircraft landed in France. Magazine returned 14/12/45”.

Just caught up with this on Iplayer and thought it was the best documentary I’ve watched in a very long time. The balance was superb: this considered, level-headed appraisal of the bombing campaign turned what could have been ‘just another aviation documentary’ into something special.

Any sensible student of history can see that nothing is black-and-white, simple right and wrong, however much we like to see World War Two through polarised glasses. The film made abundantly clear the supreme, staggering heroism of the crews and the damage done to the Nazi war effort, while not shying away from the fact that on the other end were ordinary, equally human people caught up in the most horrifying devastation imaginable. To deny either side of the campaign the coverage it deserves would be criminal. Bravo BBC!

Phew.

I did say clearly that I enjoyed the program. My comments were not aimed particularly at the program, but at the cottage-industry of Bomber Command and Harris bashers who are unable to accept the direct link between their freedom to talk as much rubbish as they want, and the means used to obtain it.
I think the dead parrot sketch has run it’s course now Arthur.

Those shots were quite striking, and unusual. The view was quite ‘plan’, ie perhaps 300 feet over the landing Dak, but I think I understand why.

We briefly saw the helicopter in the background, and and that was presumably the camera ship. If you tracked in filming line astern behind, the wake turbulence would be pretty sporty, to say the least, hence the need to go high.

The camera we used was a Cineflex V14, an absolutely incredible bit of kit. At over $500,000 each, bolted to $1,000,000 helicopter it’s hardly the cheapest way to some aerial footage so hats off to Lion TV and the BBC for making the rental investment. If you take a look at the following link you’ll see the capabilities of the camera both in terms of zoom and stability:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9P1xEQUPU28&sns=em

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTO-BNicZyo&sns=em

It allows us to get shots from quite a stand off position. It’s great for wildlife shows, Mr Polar Bear isn’t disturbed by the helicopter because it’s 3/4 mike away.

We knew directional control would be the challenge so that following shot we thought would be ideal. We didn’t get too close on landing in case he bounced it and went around. That Waltham runway is both bumpy and short for training on the Dak. We were disappointed Colin did so well, we really thought we’d get more drama than that! Bleedin, show off..

😉

Can’t we just agree that the programme was a very good and fair one?

It was a program about aeroplanes on BBC1 on prime time tv, that is more than we get most of the time, the fact it was well made and fair is a real bonus.

As I expected – no examples – what a surprise. :rolleyes:

This particular documentary has said much of what needed to be said. I didn’t detect any “agendas” or “left wing hand wringing” (whatever that is). The programme told the story, had interested and enthusiastic presenters, covered most aspects and placed it in a modern context and by and large appears to have met with approval, even within the expertise on this forum.

The BBC are to be congratulated on telling a story that was long overdue.

#77

They will know who they are.

John Green

There are a few, perhaps politically inspired but certainly deluded contributors to this Forum who, whenever the subject of Bomber Command and their unique war winning contribution comes up, attempt to corrupt and demean the narrative.

I haven’t seen any of that on this or in fact on any thread on this forum. Maybe some examples would be appropriate in this case.

There are a few, perhaps politically inspired but certainly deluded contributors to this Forum who, whenever the subject of Bomber Command and their unique war winning contribution comes up, attempt to corrupt and demean the narrative.

Consider this: untill 1944, we had no means of bringing the war to a conclusion. We had few means of seriously damaging or impeding the Nazi war effort. We had few means of grieviously damaging communications of road, rail and water thus impeding the supply of war materials – the very oxygen of war.

The one and only means that we had of bringing death and destruction in sufficient proportions so as to convince the Germans to call it day, was by the unrelenting efforts of the mighty RAF Bomber Command, supported by daytime attacks from the Americans.

Wars are won as much by ruthlessness as much as anything else. Thankfully, Bomber Command had the right brand of Commander who had the right brand of ruthlessness.

My personal admiration for the men of Bomber Command knows no limit. Fortunately for all of us including the ‘armchair revisionists’ because of their unstinting sacrifice – to use the modern idiom; ‘the good guys won’.

John Green

Neither did I but it appears that others saw it differently.

I saw no myths perpetuated in the programme and it explored many aspects fairly, albeit briefly.

Can’t we just agree that the programme was a very good and fair one?
It was brave of the production team to talk to inocent civilians caught up in the middle of the campaign, the veterans didn’t seem to have a problem with this and it made for a far more complete story, I certainly didn’t get the idea of criticism of BC at all from this programme.

What Price Failure..?

Snoopy7422
My apologies. This what you said.

Bomber Command’s own documentation would disagree with you. Things did indeed change when Harris took over but it certainly wasn’t overnight and there were inneffectual raids up until the end of the war. This is in no way a slight on the crews merely the realization that what they were trying to do was actually very difficult. That doesn’t say that all raids were ineffectual as Hamburg and Dresden testify.

Bomber crews not talking about their experiences is not exclusive to them; most of the veterans I knew never spoke of what they has gone through.

Albert Speer has been mentioned a few times. Presumably we believe him when it suits us – we wouldn’t normally rely on the word of a member of the Nazi regime would we?

————————————————————————————-
I’m not really sure what your point actually is….?……. :confused:
‘Bomber Command’s own documentation would disagree with you.’. As in what..??? You seem to be hung up on some semantics. The early failures are well established, so what actually is your point….????

1. Bomber Command evolved, through trial, error and carefully-planned application into a highly effective machine of unquestionable effectiveness.
2. It was a dynamic environment. The effectiveness – or not – of individual raids is largely irrelevant. It was a successful campaign.
3. Fact;- At the end of the day, by the wars end, there was nothing left in Germany worth bombing. Look at the pictures.
4. ‘Bomber crews not talking about their experiences is not exclusive to them; most of the veterans I knew never spoke of what they has gone through.’ No, not exclusive, I never suggested so much, but it was much more so. Other branches of the services simply had not had the misplaced opprobrium cast upon them in the same way.
5. As for Albert Speer, he had, whatever his politics, a high level of knowledge and expertise. I don’t recall the Americans questioning Werner von Brauns knowledge because of his political ties, however odious. You may not value his opinions, but the people that mattered at the time certainly DID. I absolutely do.
6. My point was that the criticism of Bomber Command was, overall, unfounded, precisely because it ended up being highly effective and was decisive in the Allies being able to win the war WHEN it did. To suggest otherwise simply flies in the face of the established facts. It learnt it’s lessons, and it learnt them well.
7. I totally disagree that delving into all this is either necessary or inevitable when examining the experiences of wartime crews. It’s a related, but separate issue.

When the subject is raised, the facts rather than the myths need to be pointed-out. Harris didn’t indulge is a pointless, mindless and spiteful campaign. He took the view that the use of strategic bombing was able to win the war before events took an Orwellian turn, and reduce the need for losses in the ground forces. He was proved correct. Hitler ended-up cowering in his bunker. But for his selfish cowardice, Germany would have sued for peace much earlier.
The fact that a few spineless people subsequently drew back from the campaign and chose to distance themselves from it, whilst quite happy to enjoy the peace it conferred, is far more a reflection upon them, rather than Harris. To turn this whole issue around into a more realistic debate, we should more profitably ask the question;- ‘What would have happened if Bomber Commands campaign had utterly failed.’ …..:diablo:

Re Bomber boys

Would be lovely to see more such programmes – Coastal Command would get my vote. My grandfather’s memoirs are being published in October and will certainly give some insight to long patrols and danger. Would also like to see one on training command

While I won’t knock the efforts of the BBC to show progammes of this quailty(very good) The above quote says it all for me as I lost an Uncle the same way (long sea going patrols and many hours of long seemingly unending flying search patterns) I might also say that though the Lancaster is a legend it is a great pity there is no Halifax and Wimpy still airbourne (not sure about that last spelling) Also no matter how hard we try, we hopefully will never recreate the same conditions as that which our parents had to go though.
Thank you all for a very informative forum.
Regards to all Ant

Snoopy7422
My apologies. This what you said.

The biggest lie, repeatedly perpetrated, is that Bomber Commands was ineffective. This is a monstrous distortion of the truth and should be contested vigorously wherever and whenever it is repeated.

Bomber Command’s own documentation would disagree with you. Things did indeed change when Harris took over but it certainly wasn’t overnight and there were inneffectual raids up until the end of the war. This is in no way a slight on the crews merely the realization that what they were trying to do was actually very difficult. That doesn’t say that all raids were ineffectual as Hamburg and Dresden testify.

Bomber crews not talking about their experiences is not exclusive to them; most of the veterans I knew never spoke of what they has gone through.

Albert Speer has been mentioned a few times. Presumably we believe him when it suits us – we wouldn’t normally rely on the word of a member of the Nazi regime would we?

Not actually too bad for Coastal Command

Catalina = Plane Sailing
Sunderland = Kermit eventually
Liberator = Collings Foundation
Fortress = Sally B
Anson = Bill Ross New Zealand
Hudson = Temora
Blenheim = Duxford’s example in due course
Beaufighter = Skysport or TFC eventually
Beaufort = Australia eventually

Then borrow a P-3 Orion or a P-8 Poseidon from somebody to replicate today

Note the due-to-appear-at-Wanaka-at-Easter Anson is in the colours of 206 Sqn Coastal Command.
http://www.warbirdsoverwanaka.com/latest_news.html

The NZ-based Catalina is in RNZAF colours. Of NZ non-fliers, the ex-RAF ex-RNZAF Sunderland is in its RNZAF retirement markings. I’m not sure about the MOTAT Mosquito, but its not Coastal Command.

Say again….

Peter & John;- Thank you for those kind comments. It is a subject that animates me considerably. All the ‘old lags’ I’ve known personally over the years are no longer with us to argue their corner. Nor, by and large would they have done so. They were all, to a man, quiet modest and unassuming, and not much given to expending their intellect upon fools. They also shared the desire not to talk about their war experiences for most of their lives. I think this was driven by the ignorant attitudes that I alluded to earlier. This did however create a vacuum, into which untruths have been poured by the ignorant. No one celebrated Dresden. It was an horrific full-stop to a costly campaign for Harris’s old lags. Had the (Jack) boot been on the other foot however, the lack of Axis magnanimity would have precluded such agonising over semantics.

(Arthur Pewtey;- If you re-read what I wrote, I didn’t say ‘Monstrous lie’. I was specifically referring to the description of Bomber Command as being ‘innefective’ – after Harris took over. That’s a ‘Mostrous distortion’ of the truth, not just in my opinion, but in fact. Look up what Speer had to say, he was in the eye of the storm, literally….)

This documentary did exactly the right thing in exploring many aspects of the bombing campaign – the only problem was that in the time available it was not possible to fully explore all the aspects. There is also nothing wrong with setting it in a modern context if only to show the scale of the operation involved compared to modern campaigns.
There is nothing wrong either with visiting the morality of a campaign where civilians were deliberately targetted. The morality of the Dresden raid has nothing to do with revisionist history or some sort of BBC guilt-trip; it was questioned very soon after the event, even by those that took part, indeed it continues to be questioned to this day. Any programme about the Allied Raids on Germany not mentioning Dresden would have been incomplete and would almost certainly have been accused of trying to gloss over important aspects of the story.
No-one is denying the bravery of the crews involved but their leadership (Churchill or Harris) and that leadership’s motives were at best questionable.

There is also no doubt that at the beginning, and by Bomber Command’s own admission, raids were ineffectual and wasteful of men and machines but by the end of the war it had become a very effective weapon. This was mentioned in the programme and backed up by facts. I don’t see the problem at all and it seems to me to be from being a “monstrous lie”.

The Allied bombing campaign had a huge effect on the outcome of the war and the crews were treated after the war was nothing short of scandalous. I’m glad that all of these aspects were brought up in what was an enjoyable and informative documentary.

The narative was pretty good I thought on balance. That said I found the “Churchill approved the Dresden attack” comment strange. Since the directive to hit either Liepzig, Chemnitz or Dresden came from him via Portal to Harris.

The decision to bomb Dresden was entirely political, at the behest of the Russians, which was mentioned in the program. I believe that Harris would not have bombed Dresden had he not been ordered to by Portal, with encouragement by Churchill. Harris however unjustly in my opinion gets all the blame, but I look at it this way. He was asked to do a dirty job, for which he accepted responsibility. He bore this responsibly like few other commanders during the war, and deserved more than the shoddy treatment from politicians. Some things never change.

The thing to remember about the Dresden raid was that there was nothing unusual about it from a planning point of view as compared with many other late war raids. Perhaps only that 5 group were by then operating as an independent force and bombed separately (earlier) than the main force using its own pathfinders. It was factors such as the local populations preparedness for a raid, and that there were only 2 shelters in the whole town, available only to party officials, that played a crucial role in the number of deaths.

For the RAF, the appalling weather in the 44/45 winter cleared over Dresden that night, all the AA guns had all been shipped to the Russian front, and the few night fighter still available were kept at bay, so the bombers were able to bomb from a lower level and concentration was achieved. It is a fact that 5 group had done the job and the rest of the main-force was unnecessary. However there was no means of ascertaining this fact in time to recall the main-force, let alone a mechanism for doing so. Even the number of deaths is exaggerated and the raid was nowhere near as destructive as those on Hamburg.

#63
Snoopy 7422

What a fine polemic! Full of truth, accuracy and passion. I would have been proud to have written that. Your comments need to be repeated again and again and yet again.

No one in this country, who values the free air they breath, should ever forget or doubt the signal strategic contribution to victory made by Bomber Command in WW2.

Don’t ask any politicians. Don’t ask the opportunistic history revisionists. Don’t ask the liberal/left social commentators. Ask instead, the captive slave workers of Nazi Germany. Ask instead the stricken Jewish concentration camp survivors. Ask the legions of downtrodden and conquered peoples who existed under the German jackboot. Ask them all, what they think of the men of Bomber Command? You will not be surprised by the answers.

John Green