Spitfire P8088/G-CGRM auction 18Feb2012

The carrier bag with the original parts in, was switched from his left hand to the right; even a few lb’s can get a bit tiring, if carried for long enough…….

P8088

Does anyone know if the Spitfire did ever change hands, or is it still for sale?

Pete

I have PM’d you the details of the engineers who viewed the engine the only conclusion we can come to is you viewed a different engine to the one that four of us who where present inspected and looked over.

That engine was certainly and most definitely Knackered if its the one from the car workshops just off the A127 in Essex.

I have previously gone into detail but the large amount of damage including water pump torn off supercharger casing bottom smashed off,prop strike damage to B Rocker cover poorly repaired and cracks welded up (not very well) on reduction gear casing.Car spark plugs in the pots and all the looms smashed off or crushed.All the control rods broken off.some signs of other things having taken place on crank case but as paint had been applied with a lavatory brush it was difficult.

The max that engine was worth if someone was desperate was about £5k except for the crank case damage the engine I have from you is externally 10 times better condition.Granted it may have given me all the internals I need plus a marginally better crank case but certainly worth no where near the price met.I can get an almost new fully complete Meteor in a box for under £5k and have far more better bits.

I think someone must have been desperate for a Merlin and I hope he/she has an understanding partner.

Mike E

Mike E

I might have thought of buying it for £1600 and chance none of the bits being any good.Rest assured the other comments made it is VERY,VERY KNACKERED all the photo’s published and the pictures taken are from an elevated position if you look carefully NO pictures are from low level or from the lower rear or close up on the top of the banks and the rocker covers.

I can off forum give anyone seriously interested the full info and a copy of the full breakdown of how crap it was that was given to the auctioneer and still they sold it. I think that when the buyer pays his money and gets it home he will wonder what the hell he has paid for.

I wonder if it has been bought without the buyer being present and over the phone going off the description only ??. The engine was a crash and smash
out of a hole where a mosquito left its mark.There is a record of all the Merlins built so confirmation should be easy to get to confirm what I am saying.But not only me but a very knowledgeable and experienced engine man who works on warbirds. If someone bought it for parts they would have been better buying a Metero for about £4-5k and transfering all the bits over all they are missing then would be a crank case with a supercharger and reduction gear .But Graham Adlam has proven that aint no real deal to get wround.

mike E

Mike

I would like to see your confirmation, and I would also like to know who your engine expert is.
I went and inspected this engine for a customer who is also a Spitfire owner, incidentally.
It certainly isn`t crashed. It has been in an outdoor scrap yard at some point, on the ground, so there is superficial damage underneath it. An internal inspection showed it to be either new or more likely overhauled, but definitely unused. Even without a borescope, just shining a torch through the timing opening, which was visible because it had a broken silica gel plug, which proves it was put into proper storage at some point, showed the condition of the internals quite clearly.

I thought he wanted too much for it as well, He wouldn`t come below about £16k. I don`t know who ended up buying it, I valued it at around £10k.

I thought the carb was a lot of money too, but if it was for a two-stage Merlin, then they are pretty hard to get.

Pete

Bidding off the wall.

What appears on Wikipedia, concerning an auctioneer taking ‘off the wall bids’, is:

“Chandelier or Rafter Bidding

A practice, especially by high-end art auctioneers, of raising false bids at crucial times in the bidding process in order to create the appearance of greater demand or to extend bidding momentum for a work on offer. To call out these nonexistent bids, auctioneers might fix their gaze at a point in the auction room that is difficult for the audience to pin down.

In the United Kingdom, this practice is legal on property auctions up to but not including the reserve price, and is also known as off-the-wall bidding.”

If this is a correct statement of English law and assuming that the reference to ‘property’ indicates real, as opposed to personal, property, one has to assume that in all other cases the practice is not legal and so that, in this case, the auctioneer was not taking ‘off the wall bids’ as this would not be legal and no reputable auction house would, I am sure, participate in or condone the practice. Hence it has to be assumed that there were two or more genuine, independent bidders who took the bidding up to £110,000.

Finally, on the basis of what is it suggested that the reserve for this lot was £120,000?

A similar thing on ebay is called shill bidding,if I remember correctly a chap got prosecuted and found guilty, this off the wall bidding sounds very dubious and similar.

On ebay there is a difference – if someone places a bit that is above the reserve, it will automatically bid up to the reserve. In a real auction, if there’s only one interested bidder, then the auctioneer has to bid against them to reach the reserve.

Crazy money….Merlin £16k – did you buy it Mike??

The Carb is silly too! £1850!!

I might have thought of buying it for £1600 and chance none of the bits being any good.Rest assured the other comments made it is VERY,VERY KNACKERED all the photo’s published and the pictures taken are from an elevated position if you look carefully NO pictures are from low level or from the lower rear or close up on the top of the banks and the rocker covers.

I can off forum give anyone seriously interested the full info and a copy of the full breakdown of how crap it was that was given to the auctioneer and still they sold it. I think that when the buyer pays his money and gets it home he will wonder what the hell he has paid for.

I wonder if it has been bought without the buyer being present and over the phone going off the description only ??. The engine was a crash and smash
out of a hole where a mosquito left its mark.There is a record of all the Merlins built so confirmation should be easy to get to confirm what I am saying.But not only me but a very knowledgeable and experienced engine man who works on warbirds. If someone bought it for parts they would have been better buying a Metero for about £4-5k and transfering all the bits over all they are missing then would be a crank case with a supercharger and reduction gear .But Graham Adlam has proven that aint no real deal to get wround.

mike E

A similar thing on ebay is called shill bidding,if I remember correctly a chap got prosecuted and found guilty, this off the wall bidding sounds very dubious and similar.

Often auctioneers run the bids up to somewhere near the reserve, it makes them look good, especially if they had a hand in valuing the lot, as the seller might not be that happy if it fell way short; not a bad price for the engine, couldn’t see the damage mentioned, and it looked pretty complete.

Bidding off the wall.

http://www.housebuyerbureau.co.uk/2011/11/what-is-bidding-off-the-wall/

Often auctioneers run the bids up to somewhere near the reserve, it makes them look good, especially if they had a hand in valuing the lot, as the seller might not be that happy if it fell way short; not a bad price for the engine, couldn’t see the damage mentioned, and it looked pretty complete.

Yes I imagine a few blokes are chatting to wives about spending a few hours a week knocking up a ‘Spitfire’ in the conservatory if this price was anything to go by!

I guess it got within £10k of the reserve and the auctioneer did not use his ‘discretion’.

I would be surprised if there were not some post auction discussion between the bidder, the seller and the auction house.

Time to do a bit of rummaging in the workshop. 🙂

Mark

Which bit are you refering to be built into a new machine? Effectively if you have the original cockpit section next to a complete Spitfire you have a new aircraft -hard to justify that one to the CAA!

If it was to be made into a flyable machine then why not build a new spitfire from scratch and keep the prvenance and this cockpit section intact as a display item?

Not sold at £110,000. then.

I am getting looks here…like why don’t you sell yours!!! History is priceless IMO!!
Thanx for the link Eddie…amused me!

Still 105 over it’s worth IMHO. 110 for a dataplate is ludicrous!
The broken Merlin went for 15. Also well over what it’s worth!

Crazy money….Merlin £16k – did you buy it Mike??

The Carb is silly too! £1850!!

Spitfire unsold!!!

£110,000 not sold