de Havilland Type Certification Announcement

Thanks Stan

Very interesting to see that New Zealand CAA is much more enlightened regarding ‘Part 115’ Certification.

Sadly the UK CAA and EASA in Europe are still a long way from this.
For example the parts you manufacture, could not be fitted to C of A or CAA Permit aircraft in the UK unless you become a CAA approved manufacturer. (One organisation has been seeking this status for more than two years, has spent hundreds of thousands of pounds and the CAA are still prevaricating!)

There is a meeting this week between the HAA Engineering Group and the CAA to discuss ongoing airworthiness certification of older aircraft. I have forwarded the Part 115 documents to the HAA members taking part!

Hi Stan, I hadn’t realised you were in the “Land of the long white cloud” so my comments might not be relevant. However there may be a ray of hope as we had some drama with the UK based AESL Airtourers that were “orphaned” by our CAA. When they would no longer count themselves as the Type Certificate holder we had to jump through several hoops but in the end the Airtourer Co-op in Oz took on the TC and the UK CAA was happy to accept that as a way forward. Perhaps the reciprocal might happen and the NZ CAA might accept backing from the UK. Any thoughts?

Cut and Paste 115 to your CAA. And whilst you are at it try the Shiny Arses in Belgium. It would of much more worth than some of the crap that they generate.

Thanks Stan, I may well take you up on that one day, I have an invitation to visit The Vintage Aviator Co down your part of the world as well some time.
Your new Part 115 looks to be something I wish we could get adopted over here, sadly I think its a small hope:(

Hi Matt, I totally agree with what you say. I put that in to create a bit of feedback.I thought it may have been you with the link to the BE2. You would be more than welcome if you can come out here. I can provide accommodation ,car and an aeroplane for you to use, so that’s those excuses out of the way.
The new part 115 is called Adventure operations and has been designed to cover gliding, tandem jumping, “Warbird” flights and oddball aircraft such as eastern block, vintage etc that have no official civil certification, for purposes of “Participating in the operation or experience of the flight”. Most enlightened legislation. You can copy it from the NZ CAA website. Go to A to Z Topics,hit R for Rules and go down to 115′

Hi Stan, I have been rebuilding Tiger,s and the like for 20 plus years and I welcome the change to make it easier to keep these old A/C in the Air. As for it reducing the business for us rebuilders I belive it will probably increase it, I spoke to Mike Souch the other day and both he and Ron agree that this is a good thing not a bad one. At the moment I have several owners of Permit A/C, Jungmann’s etc and they have no desire to get their hands dirty and just want someone with the correct expertise to look aftre the A/C for them. I also have an owner who is rebuilding a Jungmann but still needs assistance with the wood work, fabric and rigging for which he is bringing it to me. I belive that their are many DH projects out there in the UK that were dead in the water but will now be viable Aeroplane’s.
Good to hear the NZ authorities have a more realistic approach with the opperation of these old girls, I envy you and would dearly love to visit some day.

ATB, Matthew

DH type certification

Thanks for the input chaps. LOW’N’SLOW; I have a reasonably large holding of Gipsy Major etc spares and have access to all Tiger Fox and Minor drawings. I can supply and release parts and make replacements if not in stock. I have been a L.A.M.E. since 1962 and my first maintenance job was in 1956 on the Dragon when it was operated by Nelson Aero Club. I have been involved with DH airframes and engines ever since.
Whilst I understand that the move to Permit will be of great assistance to the vast majority, it also takes work away from the maintenance and rebuild establishments, e.g. Cliff Lovell, Ron and Mike Souch, Paul Groves, Jan Couper, Vintech etc etc, and with the reduced work some of these establishments will give the game away and then there will be less of the “experts” and “experience” to tackle the more complex supply or rebuild requirements that are beyond the expertise of your average private owner. These days it is getting harder to find someone who can even rig a Biplane properly.
Yes OZPLANES, the Tiger Fox and Dragon are all on certified commercial ops and BLUE MAX there is a glimmer of hope in NZ with our rather enlightened C.A.A. that we can continue to operate under the just released (Nov. 2011)part 115 Rule on Special Catagory C of A.. So, as I have offered on other strands, all of you enthusiasts are more than welcome to come down to the Antipodes and enjoy flying as of yesteryear and take a step back in time to enjoy PROPER flying.

I Can understand Stans frustration but Stan is opperating these A/C in New Zealand where the rules and regulations are different, with that in mind I dont know the ins and outs of how this change fully effects him.
From a UK point of view it was only a matter of time that this had to happen, the airworthiness requirements that are being implemented on these vintage types is unsustainable, there are very few certified parts available and the requirements are getting harder and harder to comply with. For instance there is no way a Dragon, a Fox or a Moth Minor would be able to be opperated commercialy in the UK, even before the change!!!
If these types are not moved to an LAA Permit the simple truth is that they will not fly at all!!!
From someone who has had to deal with these regulations for many years I can only welcome the change. The next issue is to get a change of the regulations governing the opperation of these A/C on a Permit so they can be used for Flight training!

Stan, do you operate your aircraft commercially? If not the Dragon and Fox Moth will go on a Permit but the Tiger can stay on a Transport C of A. It will be interesting to see how this all pans out.

I can understand the frustration of “Stan Smith”, regarding the pre-war de Havilland types. However he must appreciate he is in a rather small minority of operators

For the vast majority of private owners with de Havilland Tiger Moth and Chipmunk and those with SAL Bulldogs too, the move to a Permit to Fly will offer a significant reduction in bureaucracy and cost of being tied into EASA or CAA paperwork and ‘approved’ parts supplies.

For those operators, such as flying schools wishing to continue to operate those aircraft on Certificates of Airworthiness, it may mean that less users will be left chasing the ever-diminishing pool of CAA-certified parts.

Private owners will be increasing able to use, after due inspection, either original parts which no longer have the correct paperwork or to arrange with LAA Engineering to approve the manufacture of new parts to appropriate specifications. The rigidity of CAA and EASA seems set never to allow this.

The number of private owners who are both willing and able, under control of LAA inspectors, to carry out routine maintenance on aircraft such as Tiger Moths is huge. Just as with other classic types such as Austers and Stampes which have also moved onto LAA Permits in the past year, it will I hope more aeroplanes flying and fewer sitting in the back of hangars.

Meanwhile, this book might come in handy too! :diablo:

It annoys me.

How can a change in a certification have any physical bearing on whether an aircraft can safely carry passengers? Or earn revenue from that activity? The aircraft doesn’t know if its on a Permit or a full C of A.

It seems all going to a permit does is put a rather effective barrier to prevent an aircraft from earning its keep. So much for DeHavilland ‘support’.

Stan, THAT SUCKS, added the letter below, reading it it will effect the Fox Moth and the Moth Minor.

Could you imagine Ford turning round to every Ford car owner and telling them that to use their cars on the road, we now want a grand off you……….

Not good.

http://www.dhsupport.com/faq/faqindex.html

I wonder if this could not be covered by something stupid like the Human Rights law etc or even some European one as they are in effect taking away part of your business…

DH type certs

As a commercial part 135 charter operator and longtime DH type owner (47 years) I was rather taken aback by the DHSL news. I operate a Dragon, Fox, and Tiger and shortly hope to have the Moth Minor added to the books. These have all been rebuilt to high standards and, as an example, the Dragon has been operating for14 years without any problems. Now, at a stroke of a pen by a group I held in high regard my investment in time money and effort are nullified. I have done this, without any outside assistance, in an effort to save some of our aviation history and keep it flying.

No private owner in their right mind will stay on a CofA, and It will remain to be seen how viable opperating a Tiger Moth commercialy will be!! I suspect as I said earlier that it wont be!

I was wrong. Commercial operators will have to pay a fee to keep their membership of the TRA system. I’ll get my coat.

I may be wrong but I think they will remain Type Certificate holders for the C of A machines, both private and commercial. The TRA will apply to the Permit aircraft. All very complicated.

Yes Tony, it seems DHSL are proposing that you pay them to keep operating your CofA under the TRA scheme they oversee. I guess an up-front overhead that needs covering.

Apparently the Dove is specifically not covered and therefore will not be able to operate commercially.

Isn’t there something about those that are being used for Commercial work will have to fork out about a grand a year to continue doing it?

And about time to!! To be honest as far as I can see there are more pros to this than cons. For how much longer you will be able to run a Tiger, chippy or Rapide on a CofA remains to be seen. What now needs to chnge are the rules and reg governing Permit A/C being able to be use for flight training.
I suspect it wont be long before the rest of the Annex 2 A/C migrate to the LAA. With any luck anyway.