Navy Wessex paint

I’m a little more out my comfort zone there (i.e. Need to check) but I think the later ones (AEW) were overall Dark Sea Grey and that might have been the colour on white/grey ones (Early ones were of course MSG over white!!)

Well I have to ‘fess up here,
I am wrong and Dave is right about the grey used on Shackletons.
AP.119A-0601-1E (Jun ’72) which was the official painters and finishers guide states,

‘Maritime Reconnaissance-piston engined:
Gloss dark sea grey upper and lower surfaces
BS381C/638
Except top of fuselage which is to be gloss white.
On NEAF aircraft only, this white finish is also to be applied over wing fuel tanks.
Serials and ID letters in post office red with white edging.’

Obviously that covers the MR.2/3 Shacks, but as the codes and serials are presented in the same way it is fairly safe to assume the AEW.2s were finished in the same gloss dark sea grey.

I’m still surprised by this as the grey looks a slightly different tint/hue to me than that used in the camoflage scheme of the fighters/bombers of the era. Maybe its’s the gloss content, HSA’s paint type, or the fact that there is just so much more undisrupted grey on show which has thrown me?

Thanks to TonyT for the AP and DaveF86 for raising the issue with me.

It could have been anything applied by Blackburn, but I wonder if it was Aircraft Blue (BS381C 110) – i seem to recall an FAA Hunter painted with that colour on the upper surface. – it’s slightly lighter than Roundel Blue

Dave, I think you are referring to the three FAA Admiral’s Barge Hunter T.8s that were successively based at Yeovilton in the ’60s. This same colour blue was applied overall to a Sea Prince and I wouldn’t mind betting the NA.39 prototype was also in the same shade of blue.

It could have been anything applied by Blackburn, but I wonder if it was Aircraft Blue (BS381C 110) – i seem to recall an FAA Hunter painted with that colour on the upper surface. – it’s slightly lighter than Roundel Blue

Dave, I think you are referring to the three FAA Admiral’s Barge Hunter T.8s that were successively based at Yeovilton in the ’60s. This same colour blue was applied overall to a Sea Prince and I wouldn’t mind betting the NA.39 prototype was also in the same shade of blue.

I’m a little more out my comfort zone there (i.e. Need to check) but I think the later ones (AEW) were overall Dark Sea Grey and that might have been the colour on white/grey ones (Early ones were of course MSG over white!!)

EDSG was specified for MR (post ’55) and AEW Shacks.
I think the DSG business comes from viewing aircraft that have faded after a while, after all they were kept outside in salt laden environments immediately after repaints.
If you compare an AEW Shack colour to the grey used on RAF camo’d combat aicraft such as Lightnings etc you can really notice the difference, even if the lightness of the tone becomes similar between the two there is a faint blue tint in EDSG that makes it somehow distinctive & ‘richer’ in appearance.
This subject was exhaustively looked into when we repainted WL795 for the first time, and original service litrature was used (and paint I think!).
Newarks’ latest repaint of their MR.3 looks perfect and has that ‘rich’ tone.

Wessex were of course in service during some of the Shackleton’s career – how’s that JT!

I’m a little more out my comfort zone there (i.e. Need to check) but I think the later ones (AEW) were overall Dark Sea Grey and that might have been the colour on white/grey ones (Early ones were of course MSG over white!!)

EDSG was specified for MR (post ’55) and AEW Shacks.
I think the DSG business comes from viewing aircraft that have faded after a while, after all they were kept outside in salt laden environments immediately after repaints.
If you compare an AEW Shack colour to the grey used on RAF camo’d combat aicraft such as Lightnings etc you can really notice the difference, even if the lightness of the tone becomes similar between the two there is a faint blue tint in EDSG that makes it somehow distinctive & ‘richer’ in appearance.
This subject was exhaustively looked into when we repainted WL795 for the first time, and original service litrature was used (and paint I think!).
Newarks’ latest repaint of their MR.3 looks perfect and has that ‘rich’ tone.

Wessex were of course in service during some of the Shackleton’s career – how’s that JT!

sorry, unable to add image

sorry, unable to add image

Could the Bucc prototypes have had Oxford Blue topsides – that colour seems to have been in circulation at the time, in particular the RAN Wessex fleet coming out of Yeovil….. which neatly stops the thread drift and brings us back to parrafin palmtrees

Funny colour Oxford blue – in some pics it looks darekr than the roundel blue, and almost a navy blue in others it looks lighter (Adrian’s Testing Colours book provides several examples of this!)

Could the Bucc prototypes have had Oxford Blue topsides – that colour seems to have been in circulation at the time, in particular the RAN Wessex fleet coming out of Yeovil….. which neatly stops the thread drift and brings us back to parrafin palmtrees

Funny colour Oxford blue – in some pics it looks darekr than the roundel blue, and almost a navy blue in others it looks lighter (Adrian’s Testing Colours book provides several examples of this!)

Interesting Dave, my understanding (thus open to any corrections, with evidence!) is that every fixed-wing FAA combat aircraft from the early 1950s (maybe earlier?) through to the early Sea Harriers FRS.1s were specified to be painted in EDSG top & sides.

Yep, then post Falklands the Shars (and HUnters) were painted in Dark Sea Grey – it was the compromise between the EDSG (Ideal at low level) and the higher level Medium Sea Grey that the 809 Squadron aircraft were painted.

Same colour used on Shackleton MR under & sides (all over on mid period MR & AEW).
DSG only being used by the RAF in their standard two tone grey/green camoflage of the post war era.

I’m a little more out my comfort zone there (i.e. Need to check) but I think the later ones (AEW) were overall Dark Sea Grey and that might have been the colour on white/grey ones (Early ones were of course MSG over white!!)

The NA.39 development aircraft certainly do seem to have had a unique blue upper scheme, which I had assumed was applied by Blackburns rather than the service.

It could have been anything applied by Blackburn, but I wonder if it was Aircraft Blue (BS381C 110) – i seem to recall an FAA Hunter painted with that colour on the upper surface. – it’s slightly lighter than Roundel Blue

Interesting Dave, my understanding (thus open to any corrections, with evidence!) is that every fixed-wing FAA combat aircraft from the early 1950s (maybe earlier?) through to the early Sea Harriers FRS.1s were specified to be painted in EDSG top & sides.

Yep, then post Falklands the Shars (and HUnters) were painted in Dark Sea Grey – it was the compromise between the EDSG (Ideal at low level) and the higher level Medium Sea Grey that the 809 Squadron aircraft were painted.

Same colour used on Shackleton MR under & sides (all over on mid period MR & AEW).
DSG only being used by the RAF in their standard two tone grey/green camoflage of the post war era.

I’m a little more out my comfort zone there (i.e. Need to check) but I think the later ones (AEW) were overall Dark Sea Grey and that might have been the colour on white/grey ones (Early ones were of course MSG over white!!)

The NA.39 development aircraft certainly do seem to have had a unique blue upper scheme, which I had assumed was applied by Blackburns rather than the service.

It could have been anything applied by Blackburn, but I wonder if it was Aircraft Blue (BS381C 110) – i seem to recall an FAA Hunter painted with that colour on the upper surface. – it’s slightly lighter than Roundel Blue

The first (and second for a while) NA.39 did have blue top sides, not as dark as Oxford I would say, more middish in tone. It appears like this in many photos, the classic Airfix kit, and on the Buccaneer site, http://www.blackburn-buccaneer.co.uk/NA39_XK486_files/0_NA39_XK486.html
I would think the paint was applied at Brough, and not linked to the blue paint on Wessex.
From then they did wear the service representative EDSG over white (apart from the all white S.1s), and EDSG all over.

The first (and second for a while) NA.39 did have blue top sides, not as dark as Oxford I would say, more middish in tone. It appears like this in many photos, the classic Airfix kit, and on the Buccaneer site, http://www.blackburn-buccaneer.co.uk/NA39_XK486_files/0_NA39_XK486.html
I would think the paint was applied at Brough, and not linked to the blue paint on Wessex.
From then they did wear the service representative EDSG over white (apart from the all white S.1s), and EDSG all over.

Could the Bucc prototypes have had Oxford Blue topsides – that colour seems to have been in circulation at the time, in particular the RAN Wessex fleet coming out of Yeovil….. which neatly stops the thread drift and brings us back to parrafin palmtrees

Could the Bucc prototypes have had Oxford Blue topsides – that colour seems to have been in circulation at the time, in particular the RAN Wessex fleet coming out of Yeovil….. which neatly stops the thread drift and brings us back to parrafin palmtrees

The NA.39 development aircraft certainly do seem to have had a unique blue upper scheme, which I had assumed was applied by Blackburns rather than the service.

I know that the subject of paint and shades can be a bit of an emotive one!

DaveF68 is correct in that all early Buccaneers were EDSG on upper surfaces, which later gave way to EDSG overall. The prototype NA.39, XK486,had Royal Blue upper surfaces. You may recall that the third prototype, XK488, was outside the FAA Museumm at Yeovilton incorrectly painted in this scheme for years and is now being restored in the correct colours, after I sent them colour photos.

The NA.39 development aircraft certainly do seem to have had a unique blue upper scheme, which I had assumed was applied by Blackburns rather than the service.

I know that the subject of paint and shades can be a bit of an emotive one!

DaveF68 is correct in that all early Buccaneers were EDSG on upper surfaces, which later gave way to EDSG overall. The prototype NA.39, XK486,had Royal Blue upper surfaces. You may recall that the third prototype, XK488, was outside the FAA Museumm at Yeovilton incorrectly painted in this scheme for years and is now being restored in the correct colours, after I sent them colour photos.

Interesting Dave, my understanding (thus open to any corrections, with evidence!) is that every fixed-wing FAA combat aircraft from the early 1950s (maybe earlier?) through to the early Sea Harriers FRS.1s were specified to be painted in EDSG top & sides. Same colour used on Shackleton MR under & sides (all over on mid period MR & AEW).
DSG only being used by the RAF in their standard two tone grey/green camoflage of the post war era.
EDSG dosen’t seem to be that much different from EDG, just slightly darker with a hint of blue.

Absolutely agree that weathering of the paint plays a major part of paint colour perception (and misconception), especially with maritime and FAA aircraft.

The NA.39 development aircraft certainly do seem to have had a unique blue upper scheme, which I had assumed was applied by Blackburns rather than the service.

I know that the subject of paint and shades can be a bit of an emotive one!

Interesting Dave, my understanding (thus open to any corrections, with evidence!) is that every fixed-wing FAA combat aircraft from the early 1950s (maybe earlier?) through to the early Sea Harriers FRS.1s were specified to be painted in EDSG top & sides. Same colour used on Shackleton MR under & sides (all over on mid period MR & AEW).
DSG only being used by the RAF in their standard two tone grey/green camoflage of the post war era.
EDSG dosen’t seem to be that much different from EDG, just slightly darker with a hint of blue.

Absolutely agree that weathering of the paint plays a major part of paint colour perception (and misconception), especially with maritime and FAA aircraft.

The NA.39 development aircraft certainly do seem to have had a unique blue upper scheme, which I had assumed was applied by Blackburns rather than the service.

I know that the subject of paint and shades can be a bit of an emotive one!

Thanks – always wondered what colour was used on RN helos!
On a similar tack, was RAF blue-grey 633 the shade used on the Buccaneer prototypes and early S.1 development aircraft?
The shade used was darker than the ‘Dark Sea Grey 638’ used on later production S.1 and S.2 aircraft, and also seems too dark and too blue for ‘Extra Dark Sea Grey 640’.

S1, S2s etc were Extra Dark Sea Grey. AFAIK, the first FAA jet aircraft painted with Dark Sea Grey (other than some conversion flight Phantoms in camouflage) were the Sea Harriers in 1983. EDSG fades in an operation environment, and can look quite blue in certain lights, but I’d agree the prototypes did look very blue.

Excellent, guess what my next question was going to be!
I take it the yellow upper was for ditching visibility reasons?
Which Ian Huntley book has this information?

Not a book, one of the old articles he did for ‘Scale Aircraft Modelling’. He also mentioned an interim shade (A British produced ‘Sea Blue’, which is possible, although I’ve never seen any evidence for that (Lee, does your book cover that?).