RAF Museum Defiant

Pretty accurate.

Thanks mainly to your good office! 😉

I have to admit I’m very surprised by your kill-per-intercept statement; my initial thought was that the only (?) other RAF night-fighter was the Blenheim which was, I think, too slow to be an effective night-fighter but, of course, that isn’t the point that your statement is making! With similar armament (four 303 machine guns) that must say something about the configuration of the guns (or the skills of pilot versus dedicated gunner) and how they were able to be used; shades of Schräge Musik?

DaveF68 et al.

The previous posts about a Defiant in Loch Ness came from a Troll who used to frequent this site posting about aircraft in water. He used various logins and at one stage posted as a female diver.

He delighted in starting rumour to get the “aviation anoracks” excited.

If you read the previous threads you will see he cited my work on identifying Defiant losses in the area as the source of the claim.

I have previously listed the known Defiant losses and missing Defiants in the area. I have also listed the known and suspected aircraft that crashed into the Loch all from research to confirm or deny the “heard it from a friend who heard it from a man in our pub”.

Hi Ross,

Thanks for responding. I heard about the ‘Defiant in Loch Ness’ story long before I ever found this forum, or heard of ‘Dive the World’. I beleive it was in the same location as Ceees mentions. It was definitely in connection with East Fortune’s aquistion of the the Beaufighter and the then curator being asked about future projects.

Of course that could have come from here originally!

I think, after seeing some of the recoveries from Norwegian waters in recent years, we all have dreams of the murky lochs of Scotland holding such treasures! I think because of the depth and volume of Loch Ness (To the un-initiated, you could fit the entire population of China into the volume occupied) it holds that ‘Oooh, there could be something down there’ fascination.

Do you know if anything else has been identified there? (I found your previous post that mentions a Stranraer, but the AB book lists that one as Damaged Beyond Repair, which doesn’t suggeest abandoned or sunk)

I understand it was originally intended to engage bombers (beyond the range of escorting fighters) with its turret, so if forward-firing guns were to be of use in this role it begs the question why bother with the turret at all? The whole idea was an evolutionary cul-de-sac (with the benefit of hindsight).

Pretty accurate. The issue wasn’t that the ‘bomber destroyer’ wasn’t a good idea (or not) but that the fall of the low countries and France meant that the German bombers attacking Britain were escorted, something that wasn’t planned for.

A single seat (unarmed, but ballasted) Defiant was trialled to explore the option, but like the Miles M20 wasn’t needed as production of existing types kept pace and pilots – not aircraft – was the critical minimum.

A measure of real-world success is how adaptable a machine is in the light of actual events and needs as opposed to the expected ones. The details of the Defiant’s brief success with 164 Squadron and tragic later debacle in 1940 are usually over-simplified, not to mention exaggerated, but true in essence. However the Defiant went on to found the principles of early RAF night fighting, achieving a kill ratio* better than any other of the time. They were also used for early Electronic Warfare with 515 Squadron, as well as trialling very early ejection seats. It’s early failure in a task it wasn’t intended to fulfil has (IMHO) unfairly tainted what was interesting and varied career with a critical (night fighter) success that is often overlooked.

The restoration of the RAF Museum Defiant by MAPS is a great thing; it is a pity it is not able to be more open.

Regards,

* During the Blitz years of 1940 – 1941, Defiants had the greatest kill-per-intercept ratio of any RAF night-fighter.

Anyway I can confirm there is definitely one Defiant receiving TLC in some workshops at Rochester Airport. Go and see it for yourself ! 🙂
mmitch.

Ross,

Sounds clear but our favorite magazine reported on
this many years ago before the trolling started.

Cees

DaveF68 et al.

The previous posts about a Defiant in Loch Ness came from a Troll who used to frequent this site posting about aircraft in water. He used various logins and at one stage posted as a female diver.

He delighted in starting rumour to get the “aviation anoracks” excited.

If you read the previous threads you will see he cited my work on identifying Defiant losses in the area as the source of the claim.

I have previously listed the known Defiant losses and missing Defiants in the area. I have also listed the known and suspected aircraft that crashed into the Loch all from research to confirm or deny the “heard it from a friend who heard it from a man in our pub”.

There is no record of a Defiant crashing into my garden pond..does this mean that hearsay will allow me to start a Tighar recovery operation that you can fund to recover one from it?

Normally I just say my piece once, but to see Dive The World trolling repeated, argued as correct, and returned to this forum from beyond the grave is beyond the pale.

Ross

Loch Ness starts about 5 miles from the Moray Firth, so I guess it’s easy for people to get confused…

Check back in the threads and use google, there are no Defiants in Loch Ness.
What does it take to get a simple fact across ? But then I suppose it is because I have experience in research and get annoyed when I see the rumours repeated . And its not just aviation research where this happens, some people just do not want the facts to spoil a story.

If you ever decide to organise a recovery you will need solid evidence before anyone will come up with funds and a rumour will not work (unless you have a way of converting people with more money than sense , which has of course happened )

3 earlier threads on this forum with comments from Ross and he has repeated it again here, there are no records of a Defiant in Loch Ness. So can people stop repeating rumours which have no foundation in fact.

That does not mean that there are no Defiants in Loch Ness, it merely means that there are no records of a Defiant crashing in Loch Ness – are there any records of Defiants being ‘Missing’ in that part of the country?

There is the statement of a former curator of a National museum (although I note from one thread that there seemed to be some back pedalling on that)

Would the Defiant have become a much better fighter during WW2 if it had some forward facing guns fitted in the wings?

I seriously doubt it!

I suppose it depends on how you intended to use it but adding forward-firing guns (even if not eight 303 or 20mm cannon) would have made it slower and less manoeuvrable; and it was already handicapped by the weight and drag of the turret. In combat with a single-seat fighter it would still have been a death-trap even if it had some measure against the supposed head-on attacks (which I’ve never been convinced by).

I understand it was originally intended to engage bombers (beyond the range of escorting fighters) with its turret, so if forward-firing guns were to be of use in this role it begs the question why bother with the turret at all? The whole idea was an evolutionary cul-de-sac (with the benefit of hindsight).

Would a Hurricane be a better fighter if you added a gunner and turret? No, the turret is the problem on the Defiant…..not the lack of forward-firing guns.

Defiant in Moray Firth

3 earlier threads on this forum with comments from Ross and he has repeated it again here, there are no records of a Defiant in Loch Ness. So can people stop repeating rumours which have no foundation in fact.

Ross did not mention Loch Ness in his answer only Moray Firth! Read before you write!

3 earlier threads on this forum with comments from Ross and he has repeated it again here, there are no records of a Defiant in Loch Ness. So can people stop repeating rumours which have no foundation in fact.

There was certainly talk of a Defiant in Loch Ness when they were looking for R for Robert I recall.

I have oftain wondered about trying to recover it !

Jules

These restorations are really top-class, but, once done, the aircrafts should stay on their wheels.

re;

Would the Defiant have become a much better fighter during WW2 if it had some forward facing guns fitted in the wings?

I allways thought that too.

I think that it would be a good idea if after completion the Defiant was placed on Loan to East Fortune to represent the use of the Defiant in Scotland.

And we can get the IWM to swap us the 602 Spitfire for the XVIe…..!

I think that it would be a good idea if after completion the Defiant was placed on Loan to East Fortune to represent the use of the Defiant in Scotland.

However possibly it will be completed as a Target Tug with stripes! 🙂 :diablo:

I think the intention is to paint it in the scheme it was in when delivered in September 1940 which was not black.

This is not the case.

Would the Defiant have become a much better fighter during WW2 if it had some forward facing guns fitted in the wings?

There was an article in FlyPast many Moons ago about an intact Defiant in a Scottish Loch. Apparently the gunner was drowned in the ditching. Can anyone expand on this?

I remember that came from the chap who was the Curator at East Fortune and went to EAA) Can’t recall his name – was it Adam Smith?) – he claimed that one of the Nessie hunts showed a side scan or sonar image that wa s a perfect match for the dimensions of the Defiant . This might have been about the time they bought the Beaufighter, when asked about future aquisitions..