Lancaster bomb shackles etc in B29's…

Ah No – The Teller Ulam design was first proposed in 1951, give or take a bit.

Tuck invented the shaped charged compression lens and Urchin in April 1944 not for the “super”, but for the Fat Man. Up until then the American in charge of the plutonium weapon, Seth Neddermeyer had met with complete and total failure in his attempts to develop a workable solution so Oppenhiemer fired him.

As the Teller Ulam design required a sperhical first stage it would not have existed without Tuck’s implosive lens.

Another very creditable input for developing Fat Man was Canadian Robert Christy who did the final core sizing……. Fat Man is sometimes called the “Christy Gadget”

The Hydrogen Bomb differed from the Atomic Bomb in that it used radiation implosion rather than explosive lensing. Yes, the primary used explosive lensing, but the Super is really a totally different design.

You might say that there could be no Super without the primary, but then you might also say, that there would be no Primary without conventional bombs and so forth back in time, until there are only rocks and sticks as weapons. You only get credit for an invention once, development after that is really a further step building on the previous – no matter who developed the first.

The way an Teller-Ulam design generates neutrons is also very much different from the Urchin used in the Atomic Bombs and is really what sets the Teller-Ulam design apart.

Tuck was part of the team behind creating a bomb from the Teller-Ulam design – specifically the development of explosive lensing and the Urchin initiator. Problems that would have been solved even without Tuck – the Teller-Ulam design would not have existed without Teller.

Ah No – The Teller Ulam design was first proposed in 1951, give or take a bit.

Tuck invented the shaped charged compression lens and Urchin in April 1944 not for the “super”, but for the Fat Man. Up until then the American in charge of the plutonium weapon, Seth Neddermeyer had met with complete and total failure in his attempts to develop a workable solution so Oppenhiemer fired him.

As the Teller Ulam design required a sperhical first stage it would not have existed without Tuck’s implosive lens.

Another very creditable input for developing Fat Man was Canadian Robert Christy who did the final core sizing……. Fat Man is sometimes called the “Christy Gadget”

Thank you Antoni, a total of 44,0000 Ib hung off two hard points has to be some kind of record!
I’ve tried Googling, but can’t find any more info or pics.

Is that a genuine picture? If so that is 24,000Ibs that B-29 is hauling on underwing hardpoints!

Wichita built B-29-75-BW, 44-70060 converted to a test-bed for underwing external bomb racks to avoid the limiting dimensions of the bomb bay. Photographed with a pair of sand filled, dummy Grand Slam bombs to check the flying qualities of the aircraft on 29th June 1945. Each of the racks could carry one 22,000 lb Grand Slam, or one 12,000 lb Tall Boy, or a pair of M56 4,000 lb light case demolition bombs. The latter were carried inside the B-29 in combat but it was a tight, tricky installation and required special loading equipment.

The Grand Slam bombs were to be used against Yokohama which is sited on coastal shelf with a well-defined fault line behind it. The theory was that dropping the bombs could trigger the failure of the shelf along the fault and Yokohama would slide into the ocean.

Excuse me – James L Tuck from Manchester;- Credited within officially Manhattan project history as the inventor of the plutonium weapon implosion explosive lenses and the core neutron initiator. Until his genius solved these problems there was no workable solution for a plutonium weapon.

I didn’t say Teller invented the hydrogen bomb on his own (although that was how he liked to see it) –it’s known as the Teller–Ulam design. However, among the scientists involved in atomic research, Teller was the strongest proponent for developing the “Super”, also known as the Hydrogen Bomb. Tuck was part of the team behind creating a bomb from the Teller-Ulam design – specifically the development of explosive lensing and the Urchin initiator. Problems that would have been solved even without Tuck – the Teller-Ulam design would not have existed without Teller.

There is a lot of myth here.

If any foreign scientist deserves extra credit, it’s the Italian Enrico Fermi. However, there were scientists from nearly every European country – also notably the warmongering Edward Teller from Hungary, who in time was behind the Hydrogen bomb and an active promoter of its use.

Excuse me – James L Tuck from Manchester;- Credited within officially Manhattan project history as the inventor of the plutonium weapon implosion explosive lenses and the core neutron initiator. Until his genius solved these problems there was no workable solution for a plutonium weapon.

I would argue that making one big bang, where accurate targeting wasn’t really too much of a worry was more a middle school science approach.

The technology in the Grand Slam and its delivery was impressive in its own way.

Tube Alloys was the codename for the British atomic research during the war. If more or less fizzled out in mid 1943 and was merged with the Manhattan Project in late 1943 – a small number of British scientists moved to Los Alamos, or Berkley.

Talking of accurate targeting….
When they started throwing Minuteman I’s at Kwad, SOP was to evacuate everyone off the atoll & move em 200 miles out….
By the time the Minuteman III came on line, SOP was to find a comfy spot on the beach & watch them splash down in the lagoon..

Compared to the American project, the Tube Alloys project was a mere middle school science project.

I would argue that making one big bang, where accurate targeting wasn’t really too much of a worry was more a middle school science approach.

The technology in the Grand Slam and its delivery was impressive in its own way.

I have read plenty of books about the Manhattan Project, but i might give that one a try too 😀

It’s my current “Throne Room” reading material :diablo: I’m up to may ’45 right now. Book actually starts in the early-mid 30’s with Slizard wandering around London & having an epiphany by the British Museum.

I did some research regarding the Tallboys big brother, Grand Slam and found these pics on the inter web
[ATTACH]tallboy[/ATTACH]
Martin

Is that a genuine picture? If so that is 24,000Ibs that B-29 is hauling on underwing hardpoints!

I was refering to the *British* hungarians etc, as opposed to the Americans Hungarians 😉

Anywho, read the book:
http://www.amazon.com/Making-Atomic-Bomb-Richard-Rhodes/dp/0684813785

I have read plenty of books about the Manhattan Project, but i might give that one a try too 😀

Anyway, your original post seemed to suggest, that British involvement would have produced the bomb quicker. This is really not so. Compared to the American project, the Tube Alloys project was a mere middle school science project.

But it’s certainly is an absolute bloody wonder, that they managed to produce a weapon just 7 years after nuclear fission was discovered. By the way, did you realize that only 600 mg of material was converted into energy in the Hiroshima explosion? Sort of gives an idea of the force they released.

The B-29 was chosen as the carrier for the atomic bombs two years before any were dropped on Japan. In June 1943 the only feasible atomic bomb was believed to be one based on a plutonium gun design. The gun was about 17 feet long and could only be carried in a specially modified B-29 whose bomb bays would have to be joined together into a single long bay to carry the weapon. Under wing installations were considered and rejected. The Lancaster was studied as a possible carrier but rejected on the grounds that it could not be fitted into the existing logistics and maintenance pipelines.

Generally engineers do not try to reinvent the wheel. They will try to use or adapt something that already exists to the purpose, rather than design something new from scratch. This is a sign of intelligence not an inability to design or construct a component. It takes saves time and money.

A B-29 was modified and used for drop tests of the long gun weapon mockup, by then called Thin Man, and the implosion plutonium bomb called Fat Man. Test drops of both bomb mockups were made at Muroc Dry Lake Bombing Range beginning in March 1944. The last series damaged the carrier B-29 which required repairs thus delaying the tests. By, June, when the B-29 was ready to start testing again, the gun design had been shortened considerably and renamed Little Boy. This could now fit in one bomb bay of the B-29.

In October 1944 the first of the specially modified Silverplate B-29s were used in drop tests of the mockup bomb shapes over Wendover Bombing Range. The Silverplates were modified, not by combining the bomb bays as was first planned, but by installing stronger bomb racks, each atomic bomb weighing about five tons.

There is a lot of myth here.

I fail to see where listening to the British, would have produced a bomb as much as a year before.

I was refering to the *British* hungarians etc, as opposed to the Americans Hungarians 😉

Anywho, read the book:
http://www.amazon.com/Making-Atomic-Bomb-Richard-Rhodes/dp/0684813785

Nobody’s disputing that the bomb shackle could have been manufactured elsewhere but the B-29 wasn’t really configured internally for one big bomb was it? It makes sense to use something that’s already available for carrying a big bomb, which had already possibly been looked at with the B-29 carrying those dummy Grand Slams under the wings.

regards,
Ric

Found this vid on Youtube of Tallboy. At 0:19 it shows the bomb being hooked up to a B29(?) with footage of the inside of the bomb bay and the mods made to enable it to carry Tallboy.

For Stirling fans there is also footage of Stirlings at V. Low level at 0:46-0:50

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHPEP7ziKmU

Martin

I would think that the Lancaster corkscrew manouevre to evade a night fighter proves its structural strength.

Some of the British research into nuclear weapons – the Tube Alloys project – was carried out here in North Wales as early as 1941. This is the building where it took place, one of the scientists being the notorious traitor, Klaus Fuchs. The location is within the once ultra secret Valley Works at Rhydymwyn.

The point is, when they started developing the bomb they didn’t have anything to deliver it with. The 29 was still undergoing testing, wasn’t in action yet & the standard bomb bay wasn’t big enough anyway.

& don’t forget that most of the work brains behind the bomb were a bunch of Hungarians… From reading the book it’s an absolute bloody wonder they managed to do it when they did. There’s one case of some bloke putting a report away in his desk instead of passing it up the line & that alone caused a 3 month delay. Also looks like they might have had the bomb at least a year earlier if they’d listened to the Brits.

There is a lot of myth here.

I fail to see where listening to the British, would have produced a bomb as much as a year before. The British did indeed approach the American government in august 1941 (the MAUD committee), but at this stage America was still not at war and in 1941 a peace budget did not allow for exotic weapons development programs – in particular when nobody knew if the weapon was going to work.

It was this MAUD rapport that was hidden away, but it contained no body of scientific work and was more of a political suggestion to build the atomic bomb (it did not address the design or manufacture of a bomb in any detail). An estimate of the MAUD rapports connection to the reality of developing an atomic bomb can be judged by its 25 million dollars price tag – the Americans eventually spend 2 billion dollars on the Manhattan Project.

Although the MAUD committee’s representatives helped convince the American scientific community as a whole, that such a weapon might indeed be possible. The actual rapport would not have shortened the development process by even a day and was actually not an invitation to further joint development – as has often been suggested.

Actually it was the British who declined full cooperate in atomic weapon development, when George Braxton Pegram visited the UK in November 1941. Not until the Quebec Agreement in august 1943, did the two countries cooperate fully in the development work. However, at this stage the British did not poses any significant scientific advantage and the exchange was mostly one-way – from America to Britain.

The relatively long development time was not due to lack of scientific understanding, but due to the construction of the infrastructure needed to produce enriched uranium and plutonium for the weapons (and naturally also the actual production of weapon quality materials). It’s quite clear that no rapport could have helped shorten this physical hurdle. The bomb was actually developed exceedingly fast exactly because it was an American project. No other nation could have succeeded in this during the war – not even Germany.

It’s true than Hungarians participated in the Manhattan Project, but to say it was mostly Hungarians is taking away credit from the American scientific community – the core was mostly American born, including such distinguish scientists as Robert Oppenheimer, Glenn Theodore Seaborg, Robert Serber and Richard Chace Tolman. If any foreign scientist deserves extra credit, it’s the Italian Enrico Fermi. However, there were scientists from nearly every European country – also notably the warmongering Edward Teller from Hungary, who in time was behind the Hydrogen bomb and an active promoter of its use.

Well the book does mention Lancs being offered for the job, but national pride & the new B29 put the kybosh on that 🙂

It’s highly unlikely. The Lancaster might have been offered initially (august 1941 in connection with the MAUD Committee) , but not in direct connection with the Manhattan Project, as very few people outside Los Alamos knew the dimensions of the device – early British estimation for critical mass was measured in ton.

The Manhattan Project was highly secret and besides Churchill very few British would have known about it – certainly very few who were in a position to offer a Lancaster. That said, the americans might naturally have considered various heavy bombers before settling on the B-29, but it would have been an american consideration, not have been a British offer.

Since (to the best of my knowledge..please feel free to correct) Lancasters didn’t fly combat missions over the Japanese home islands, putting the bomb(s) in a “new” type would have been silly from a security point of view.

If the colonials were smart enough to come up with the bomb and the B-29 (arguably the most advanced type of the war that saw widespread service…German “paper planes” don’t count)…you’d think they’d be advanced enough to design a bomb shackel.:rolleyes:

The point is, when they started developing the bomb they didn’t have anything to deliver it with. The 29 was still undergoing testing, wasn’t in action yet & the standard bomb bay wasn’t big enough anyway.

& don’t forget that most of the work brains behind the bomb were a bunch of Hungarians… From reading the book it’s an absolute bloody wonder they managed to do it when they did. There’s one case of some bloke putting a report away in his desk instead of passing it up the line & that alone caused a 3 month delay. Also looks like they might have had the bomb at least a year earlier if they’d listened to the Brits.

Given that the Lancaster was developed from the Manchester – which was strong enough to be catapult launched; and the fact that they were looped and rolled by numerous pilots, I’d say it would have been probably able to cope with the turns.

As for the altitude aspect, wasn’t that to trade off for speed and distance from the blast? I remember somebody telling me it was the idea of having to outrun the blast that worried Shackleton aircrew should ever it had to deliver some instant sunshine.

Nobody’s disputing that the bomb shackle could have been manufactured elsewhere but the B-29 wasn’t really configured internally for one big bomb was it? It makes sense to use something that’s already available for carrying a big bomb, which had already possibly been looked at with the B-29 carrying those dummy Grand Slams under the wings.

regards,
Ric