FACT or FICTION: "Amiens Raid: Secrets Revealed"

Differences apart

I think its fundamentally superb that everyone shares their opinions on this issue as this provides fertile ground for research and the recording of opinion even after 68 years. Will we ever know the full truth here ? I doubt it…. but I must say I believe this book provides the only really fact punchy timeline for any reader right back to that cold snow ridden day in February 18th 1944. Talking of timelines it is today the very anniversary of this well talked about mission and I would like to remember an associated issue that Im sure none of us will have varying opinions on :- The bravery of all those who took part and whose lives were altered forever as a result.

Without stealing the thunder of the book could we have a brief resume of the ‘new’ theory, is it just that the operation was part of Fortitude?

Living a stones throw from Hunsdon, the airfield and its history has been my interest for as long as I can remember. I too have read just about everything published about the Amiens raid. I have also been lucky to have met and spoken with one or two of the aircrew participants in the past, and Ted Sismore who planned the navigational side of the raid.

The new book is packed with french eye witness reports of the time, documents to back up the new evidence, and meticulous diagrams of bomb plots, structural damage and official reports from the French aspect. I will admit now to being highly sceptical of the book when it was first brought to my attention some time ago fearing that it may have been detrimental to the crews who took part. By that I mean that it may have tarnished their image in some way. But it has not, The aircrew of 140 wing remain unblemished.

If you have an interest such as I in the Amiens raid,and I know you have, then this is the book to read. It all makes sense when you read it, take my word on that!

Got my copy in the mail last week

BlueNoser352 here:

I just recieved my copy last week and will began to read it soon..have like some here been awaiting this book…I might be the only Yank over on this side of the big pond to own a copy. I’ve started several threads on this topic because when I read a copy long ago of “The Walls came tumbling down” it attracted my attention due to the very nature of the story….. but now it appears others here have hinted it might not be the case.
Lasy year before I began my Normandy visit in June , I went up to Amiens to visit the prison and look at the place myself …thanks to some nice help of several fine well knowledged FLYPAST READERS here…… BlueNoser352 says thanks to you who responed with info. I look forward to reading the entire book and see what other fine readers of this forum offer with their insights.

Well see…but brave men flew this mission for sure…………….

Thanks
BlueNoser352

…so what’s your theory as to the real reason for the raid? We’d love to hear!

Sadly the BBC has just given uncritical publicity to M Ducellier’s conspiracy theory that the raid was part of the Fortitiude deception for which there is no evidence at all.

A taster of a forthcoming £40 worth!

http://www.redkitebooks.co.uk/pdfs/amienssamplechapter.pdf

Le Fana Issue details

The article appeared in issue number 432 in Nov 2005. When I last checked it was still available as a back number. The publisher is Editions Lariviere.

I shall be interested to see if the book actually cites any documents in proof of what the article asserted (or if M Ducellier’s view has changed since the article was published). Le Fana articles do not usually give sources in the way that a book or academic journal would, but the article did not mention any direct evidence at all for the assertion that the attack was purely part of a deception plan.

Thanks for that. What date is the issue?

I would be wary of drawing too many temporary conclusions from a magazine article’s content lacking material, compared to a book, for the obvious reason of relative space for scope. (Although they are fair criticisms of the article!) Secondly – as I know from personal experience – publishing one thing in one location usually causes you to receive corrections and additional information for further publication and revision of the account – rather like history itself.

Regards,

Ducellier on the Amiens raid

I’ve not seen the book itself but do have an article from a French magazine “Le Fana de l’Aviation” by M Ducellier on the Amiens raid.

It asserts that the raid was part of a British deception plan to lead the Germans to believe that the invasion would land in the Pas de Calais. It does not cite any evidence whatever for this although it claims that there is proof in the National Archives at Kew. It makes much of the fact that none of the prisoners were about to be killed imminently contrary to contemporary stories.

It does not mention the attacks by 2nd TAF on Gestapo buildings in Oslo, the Hague and Copenhagen, which suggest an alternative explanation for the attack.

There is no reference to Roger Hesketh’s “Fortitude” or the deception volume of the British Official History of Intelligence in WWII, which are arguably definitive works on the topic. Neither mentions the Amiens raid.

Of course, the air plan for D Day dictated that an equal volume of attacks should fall on the Pas de Calais and the Normandy regions, but this began in the spring of 1944. French civilians suffered badly in both regions; those in the Pas de Calais for reasons of deception. Perhaps M Ducellier has muddled the two episodes.

Andy and JDK are spot on about the problems in translating any book from one language to another.
MP

I am reminded of a quote from Charles Berlitz in one of his many novels where he demonstrated the difficulty of interpreting and verifying second, third even sixth-hand anecdotes.

The term ‘out of sight, out of mind’ was translated into Chinese and from there to Japanese into English and had morphed into ‘invisible and insane’.

Interesting if true, and interesting anyway! (Mark Twain)

Andy and JDK are spot on about the problems in translating any book from one language to another. It isn’t just enough to find the English equivalent for each word, you then have to re-arrange the grammar, move sentences around and finally you have to read it to see if it is easy to follow. Unfortunately this one wasn’t!

MP

I’ve done a fair bit of book and website editing just like this, and I’d be happy to help out for no cost if you need a hand getting it ‘straight’. Feel free to PM me if you need a hand.

Tony

Hmmmm

Imagine if it was translated by Babelfish :diablo:

Andy and JDK are spot on about the problems in translating any book from one language to another. It isn’t just enough to find the English equivalent for each word, you then have to re-arrange the grammar, move sentences around and finally you have to read it to see if it is easy to follow. Unfortunately this one wasn’t!

We’ve posted some sample sections on the site as Andy mentioned above. It’s only a rough cut so there may be some spelling mistakes in there still, but it at least shows the depth of research carried out by the author.

MP

I would echo Julians sentiments.

Might I just add that the author Ducellier is not on the internet and does not speak English well enough for a complicated conversation via telephone. So each query has been translated into French, sent to him, then his answer translated back into English. The publishers are conscious that any elemenatry slip up would be used to trash the whole work, ‘If he can’t get that right …’ Not only that, but the overall translation has had its ongoing problems in much the way that JDK indicated.

Some sample pages of the Amiens book are on their site. Have a quick look:

http://www.redkitebooks.co.uk/index.cfm?page=searchresults&booktype=futurereleases

I would add that I have no commercial interest or involvement with this book or RedKite in any way.

Amiens Raid

Hi I think this thread has probably covered all aspects, but just to re-iterate that this book is the sum of years of dedicated research and is as near to “definitive” as one will ever get…having read the PDF file of this book its clear that unless totally new accurate and documentarily proven new astounding facts come to light…then I would doubt if any authors will consider re-treading this ground again in the future…as literally no stone remains unturned…..powerful words I know…but then Ive seen the book already!!! Apologies to those who have to wait until publishing but I think and hope that almost everyone will agree with me that the combination of Parry , Postlethwaite and Co has delivered yet another great aviation work to us….as always!!! Cheers Julian

Might one ask what is the primary source for the Ducellier book? also is it really credible, if as has been stated, that it has been edited because the “narrative was very confusing” does that not imply that even the author is unsure?

Just to back up Andy’s point, although I have no connection with the book itself, it’s quite common for translations to a) take longer than budgeted / expected and b) need some to a good deal of re-arrangement of the narrative and then supporting material from the original language structure. It’s not often realised outside this context, but most languages I’ve dealt with have a very different rhetorical structure in developing an argument to the English one we are familiar with. Anyone ever dealing with Italian academic writing would be familiar with how far that can go and how (for someone in an English-speaking context) incredibly irritating that can be. Anything containing technical writing, such as aviation, needs another run over with an expert eye, otherwise you get ‘cell’ for ‘fuselage’ ‘missile’ or ‘grenade’ for ‘bomb’ etc. Some of those translation corrections require checking back or cross checking.

On the delay to publication issue, I’m currently organising some academic supplementary texts for a major textbook publisher. I got the work because there were not enough staff in house to tackle it, and before I got it, they were very late already. There’s a lot more cash and status riding on those than an enthusiast orientated text.

Closer to home, I note that on the Spitfire calendar ‘October’ seems to come somewhere after November in 2010… 😉

Regards,

I do hope that this new book is more about correcting errors made over time and not another conspiracy (Free French use unsuspecting RAF to remove Communists in Gestapo jail). I’m too old for that crap. Give me an honest narrative any day.

Did you watch BBC3’s The First Men in the Moon? Thought that the same (affordable) treatment could given to the Amiens raid. What do you think?

Mark (or Simon) might be able to answer in more detail, but I understand that Ducelier uses primary source archive material and his book is based upon this. The job of the editor is to make the text flow, be readable, cohesive, cogent and lacking in tautology for example. I think it is the latter which has caused a great deal of work within the limited time that Simon and Mark have been able to input, and quite probably dealing with French to English translations as well. That the unedited narrative is “quite confusing” does not imply that the author is unsure – merely that he has perhaps lacked some clarity in expression, that certain things might have been lost in translation and, additionaly, that there has been repetition.

But there again, I’m trying to put words in Mark or Simon’s mouths although I think what I have explained is about how it is.

Of course, we could all just await publication and postpone our crtitique until then. Radical, I know. But it might be the best solution in the end….:rolleyes:

Might one ask what is the primary source for the Ducellier book? also is it really credible, if as has been stated, that it has been edited because the “narrative was very confusing” does that not imply that even the author is unsure?