Wartime Training Aircraft

Oh, so it looks as if I can now remove it from the safe!

I’m sure I’ve seen Putnam’s Miles book on ebay for under £100 (‘buy it now’) recently – a massive decrease from the £350 (I think) somebody wanted for one a couple of years ago. The Airspeed book seems also to be much lower priced than it used to be.

Roger Smith.

Miles Trainers

Thank you AA for your input. When I searched Amazon for Don Brown’s book about three months ago, they were quoting a price of £238 for a second hand copy. If the first volume is anything to go by, I will have to wait for Vol II of Peter Amos for life histories of individual aircraft

I didn’t realise that Don Brown’s book was commanding such a high price. Maybe I should put my copy in the safe rather than using it as a regular source of information. But to save you taking out a second mortgage, dailee1, I’ve extracted the relevant information from the book and this is to be found at posts #17 and #18. I hope that it’s helpful to you. As to survivors, there are none to the best of my knowledge – not unless it’s another urban myth!

Why wait when you could consult Don Brown’s book!

I unfortunately cannot take out a second mortgage to buy a copy. I don’t think Don Brown’s book gives the individual aircraft histories which are the valuable partsw of PA’s book

Seriously though, there were a large number of Masters built: you would have thought at least one would have survived somewhere

I’ve just re-read my source for the last post. G-AIZM and G-AIZN are described as having been “broken up for spares”. Spares for what?

Wardrobe repairs?:D Seriously though I guess the engines would have found their way into something else (one of John Dodds’ escapades of shoehorning a Merlin into a RR Saloon?)

Blackburn B-2?

Thank you, that’s the one. I never can remember what it was called I only know that the Shuttleworth Collection operate a shiny silver one.

I’ve just re-read my source for the last post. G-AIZM and G-AIZN are described as having been “broken up for spares”. Spares for what?

did many Masters survive the war and CAA.

G-AHOB Master II Scrapped 1950
G-AIZM Master II Broken up 1948
G-AIZN Master II Broken up 1948

I suspect the reason why there were only three post-war civilian Masters is that in those years of austerity there was really no rôle for an obsolete 870 hp two seat training aeroplane.

Whether any service Masters survived the war, I do not know. However I’m inclined to be doubtful – unless by then they had become instructional airframes – as there would have been no more obvious a rôle for them than their three civilian brethren.

An interesting question to ask would be whether any of the Masters exported to overseas air forces – including those of South Africa, Egypt, Portugal and Turkey – survived the war to function in military or civilian guise. Also there were the single examples that went to the IAC and the USAF.

Obviously this then leads onto the subject of the post-war career of the Martinet and Martinet Trainer – both of which emanated from the Master. But perhaps that’s something for another thread!

…and the Bristol whatever it was that looks a little like a side by side seat Tiger Moth…

Blackburn B-2?

Failure of casein glue became a problem quite some years after the various Miles and Percival types left the works. Sitting out in all weathers allowed damp to get into the structures gradually weakening joints until something gave way some times with disastrous consequences. Many were piled together and burnt on November the 5th in the 50’s and 60’s, the cost of repair being way in excess of their value compared with the all metal Piper and Cessna types then invading the UK market. A number of Proctors were lost during and post war after a split flap broke away on deployment with instant death from the spin that ensued. Our own Proctor rebuilds require each and every joint to be broken, then cleaned and re glued using modern Aerodux. Some of the casein joints are as good as the day they were done but no corner cutting everyone is re glued. Had Aerodux been available pre and during the war years its likely that many more Percival and Miles types would be with us now. Miles Gemini “KKB” is an original casein glued aircraft and never re worked with Aerodux. Legacy of a pampered existence and always being hangared. Some Robin aircraft today are wood and fabric built and will last for decades. I have witnessed two pieces of spruce 18 inches long glued at right angles then been invited to grab one piece whilst the other was held firm, then twisting and attempting to break the joint. My piece of spruce snapped half way along its length whilst the glued joint stayed put. Aerodux not known as wood welding for nothing!! Our Proctors when rebuilt will be better then new, always hangared and should see us out.

My late Father did his basic training on Magisters at RAF Meir (Stoke on Trent) in early 1940 – I believe with No5 EFTS.

The Tiger Moth may have been the mainstay primary trainer but other types were used in varying numbers. Considering the length of its service with the RAF it is possible that some pilots even did their basic flying training on the Avro 504. Other biplane trainers that deserve to be remembered are the Hart trainer and the Bristol whatever it was that looks a little like a side by side seat Tiger Moth plus I am sure there are others I have forgotten the names of.

Ref PAS’s book, Vol 1 only goes up to 1939, you’ll have to wait for Vol 2 to get the wartime production

Why wait when you could consult Don Brown’s book!

We used our Magister for comms – & ferrying the IO between bases.
= Tim

Hi Tim, what types did you conduct your training on, from start to finish if possible?

Of course – sorry.:o I think Vol II might be a little way off yet………..

Ref PAS’s book, Vol 1 only goes up to 1939, you’ll have to wait for Vol 2 to get the wartime production

Unless someone beats me to it ( very likely ) I’ll dig out PA’s wonderful Miles book and answer your question tomorrow.

It was only post war when age and outside storage started to effect some aircraft that wooden airframes got a bad name. I believe the a general concensus is that it was a bit of a overkill by the CAA

Given the comparative rarity of Miles types still with CofAs (only 50 or so) I hold in awe those people who find the time money and enthusiasm to rebuild and operate classic wooden aicraft

To get back to my original query , I used to see two Hawk Trainer IIIs (Magisters to as small boy) operated by Southern Aero Club up until the mid 50s, but never saw a Master: did many Masters surviver the war and CAA. (I expect Peter Amos would be the best person to answer that question) and how many survived the hostilities only to be cast onto the scrap heap. Were the Masters considered to be too hot for “civilian” pilots, or were they considered too expensive to put on the civil register

We used our Magister for comms – & ferrying the IO between bases.

= Tim