BBC film of Hurricane and Pilot recovery in 1979

I don’t think Mark Kirby was in it?

However, here he is when he and I visited the memorial stone to Plt Off A W Clark on 11 September to clean it up on the 70th anniversary of his loss, exactly to the hour as it so happened.

Disreputable terrible types these “aviation archaeologists”.

Anyway, just the other side of the coin in terms of people like Mark who has had a bad press in the past and done little about it – and yet is a thoroughly decent family chap who cares deeply and passionately about “the Few” and quietly gets on with things like this. It is the other side of the coin that interested the makers of the programme ( mentioned by Mackerel) even less than they were interested in the facts!

Might I also mention that Steve Vizard, of Airframe Assemblies, had more than a little to do with the memorial to the Battle of Brtitain day casualty, Leslie Pidd, mentioned elsewhere on this forum – although he encouraged his daughter, Victoria, to take that project forward.

Remember that too – also recall it took TV journalism to a whole new low! 🙁

I never realised that many of these parts are now gone forever,i would have thought that with the effort to recover these parts and the passion that the people involved have with the BoB that they would be perserved like gold.

Maybe some would have been better left in the ground(more stuff for tv programmes now !).

Hi all, I remember a TV program some years ago called “Grave Robbers”. From memory Steve Vizard , Andy Saunders & possibly Mark Kirby were featured.

Steve.

Thanks for clearing that up for me Andy – On watching again with your words in mind I can see things differently now – after all these years! Having been involved with TV & journalists myself on a few occasions! I can certainly appreciate what you mean about editing and showing things in a way that puts things in the mind of the viewer – but I suppose that is their job! – and it obviously worked on me!

I also know what you mean about their apparent penchant for things that out of respect you would not want to be filmed / published – I recall being told by one journalist (Mirror) that they would print the story regardless if I didnt cooperate – after I had told them that the pilot’s relatives had expressly requested no publicity 😡

As far as I recall the remains were placed in a box (always what happened in the cases I have been involved in) although we expressley forbade the film crew from filming them or anything associated with them (ie clothing or equipment) with the exception of the parachute. I think the bags I am carrying contained the parachute and all the clothing etc, including shoes, mae west and the like. If you think about it, those bags I am carrying are big, bulging and HEAVY! The unfortunate remains of poor old Hugh were rather less substantial, without putting too fine a point on it. The perception one gets from the film is all a bit different, though! It goes back to what I said about the cutting and editing and I think the film crew were frustrated we would not let them film the clothing, for instance. One item that comes to mind is the back of the poor chaps shirt, with what the pathologist later concluded was the entry mark of a bullet or cannon shell. Clearly, we didn’t want any of that filmed and so the film crew had to make the best of what they had to get a slightly “sensationalistic” picture. That, at least, is my recall and I have no doubt it would be confirmed by others who were present.

Watching that certainly brought back some memories! This program was my first ever contact with the hobby of Aviation Archaeology & recall how I was desperate to get involved, but groups in those days seemed to be very secretive and I was only young, so despite my best efforts, I was unable to make any contacts – I lived in Hampshire at the time and did hear of digs taking place locally, including another pilot being found near our village? – Liss – anyone know anything? as I never did find out.

I also remember being horrified that the pilot was still in the plane and had just been left there – At that age, I still naively thought that this never happened. Also one or two questions I had then still come to mind after all these years – why open the parachute at the site and risk damaging it –was just for effect for the cameras? Far more importantly though, surely knowing that a pilot was likely to be recovered, I always felt that they should have been better prepared, rather than only having a couple of bin bags to put him in?

That image haunted me for years after! Don’t get me wrong, I am a realist and not over sensitive towards human remains – I have now been involved in the hobby for some 30 years, as well as having explored just about every corner of the Western front for a similar period, so have seen far more than most – It is just an unfortunate image that has stuck with me.

Andy,

Thanks for your honesty in describing how things were going on more than 30 years ago. As has been said, the way things were done then cannot be compared to how it is being done now (hindsight is a beautiful thing).

Also the trophy hunt (five recoveries in one weekend, you must have been very fit then:eek:) was something that was very much in fashion at the time.

From experience, regarding digging up wrecks (including human remains), basically it is just hard work reaching four metres or often even more, even when using a mechanical digger. With crashes like this the remains are just fragmentes, which you have to extract from tangled wreckage. The Time Team way is not very suitable as these recoveries nowadays are very costly (in Holland usually 300.000,00 euros or more).

This subject is very sensitive so we should all be very careful in our reactions.

Cheers
Cees

I never realised that many of these parts are now gone forever,i would have thought that with the effort to recover these parts and the passion that the people involved have with the BoB that they would be perserved like gold.

Maybe some would have been better left in the ground(more stuff for tv programmes now !).

As ever Tangmere’s points are not only useful and relevant as well as knowledgable from years of “hands-on” experience. For some reason there is more “sensitivity” about bodies and how they are treated nowadays and I can’t quite understand why. The key point about this incident is that the remains were recovered and formally buried with attendant ceremony and solemnity. Surely this is what was important for the relatives.

I would also add (as is often the case) that what you see and the perception of what you see in documentaries is not always the real picture by virtue of how a film is cut or edited. That is not an attempt at obfuscation or “defence” (if any were needed) in respect of this 1970s film but an honest appraisal of how these things often work. What you saw, or thought you saw, in that film was not neccesarily how it was. On the other hand, it was best that other things were not seen, probably. Can’t be more honest than that!

I think that is a key point that we should remember, journalism in all its forms rarely presents the unedited. Your contribution to this discussion is certainly honest and interesting.

I would agree with you, Lock Forward, in many respects.

This isn’t a plug, but I was critical (self-critical in a sense) in my recent book that looked at the cases of missing Battle of Britain pilots and also in an article in recent years in Aeroplane magazine in my article about Hugh Beresford.

I would also add (as is often the case) that what you see and the perception of what you see in documentaries is not always the real picture by virtue of how a film is cut or edited. That is not an attempt at obfuscation or “defence” (if any were needed) in respect of this 1970s film but an honest appraisal of how these things often work. What you saw, or thought you saw, in that film was not neccesarily how it was. On the other hand, it was best that other things were not seen, probably. Can’t be more honest than that!

Finally, to Orion, how you might see that as “defilement” I quite understand. But it was not and never would have been a “war grave” although through that recovery, that had to be quite apparently brutal by its methods, resulted in a hero being buried with full military honours much to the extreme satisfaction and relief of relatives. Equally, for example, the RAF recovered a certain Sgt Ernest Scott in the 1980s after pressure from family and aviation archaeologists using EXACTLY the same methods. I would suggest that was not “defilement”. It was simply the only way to do the job.

I would second that observation because I was in some way quite uncomfortable with the film, despite the historical interest. I think perhaps because it was implied that they half knew the pilot was still with the aircraft and it was therefore a war-grave but were going at it with a JCB which stood every chance of hacking off part of the skeleton. Also, the fact that the group removed the remains into bags and onto their truck themselves rather than backing off and allowing the authorities to proceed.

I realise this sounds critical, but I do not mean it thus given that perceptions and opinions are clearly different 30 years later.

I think the criticism is justified, and there is legislation intended to stop this sort of defilement of a war-grave in existance now.

Regards

A very interesting film; and something of a historical document in itself.

It is easy to suggest that ‘remains were recovered a given a proper burial’ is always the correct course when discussing missing pilots but I have to admit that the sight of black-bin-bags being carted about and police officers peering into them in the back of a pick-up truck left me a little unsettled.

However, that is the reality of the situation, and that grim reality will not be greatly different whenever and however human remains have to be recovered, (and is an important reminder that what we are enthusiastic about ultimately involves the deaths of fellow human beings).

I think Andy is being a little hard on himself (and the other pioneers) as those generations who haven’t known war need to be reminded of the suffering and sacrifice and our understanding of this particular aspect of our recent history must be one of the most researched and best documented. Finally if one otherwise forgotten serviceman (or woman) is remembered because of a ‘trophy’ sold on eBay then hasn’t some important purpose been served?

Maybe we have all grown up a little since those days. As for human remains, it is a phenomenon how much more sensitive we have all become in 30 years – I’m sure any old aviation archaeologists of that period will recall practices and occurrences that would read very badly today.

I would second that observation because I was in some way quite uncomfortable with the film, despite the historical interest. I think perhaps because it was implied that they half knew the pilot was still with the aircraft and it was therefore a war-grave but were going at it with a JCB which stood every chance of hacking off part of the skeleton. Also, the fact that the group removed the remains into bags and onto their truck themselves rather than backing off and allowing the authorities to proceed.

I realise this sounds critical, but I do not mean it thus given that perceptions and opinions are clearly different 30 years later.

Nice summary there, Andy.

I can add my own fourpenn’th – I was a teenage member of the Severnside Aviation Society and while at first it was, for some, a trophy hunt the man at the helm – a certain Allan White (lovely guy, and someone I’d like to track down) – was a historian by instinct who – if I was reading things right at the time – himself lost his love of aviation archaeology because of the ‘race to collect’ aspect. In fact, I recall he was hesitant about digging a certain Spitfire site because, as he said at the time ‘what will we learn from it?’. I was only 13, and baffled by this.

I remember this because it was the first crash site that I had found myself through investigation – N3026, a serial burned into my brain – and felt quite hurt!

Maybe we have all grown up a little since those days. As for human remains, it is a phenomenon how much more sensitive we have all become in 30 years – I’m sure any old aviation archaeologists of that period will recall practices and occurrences that would read very badly today.

Interesting piece of history, both the loss of Beresford and the footage of his and his aircraft’s recovery.

I wonder if this was filmed today, whether they would show the team and the authorities stood around the back of the truck, discussing the remains of the pilot in such a nonchalant manner ?

No, its someone with the same name!

Sadly, as is the case with many of these late 1960s and early 1970s recoveries, much has since been dispersed/lost.

Despite the boundless enthusiasm and competition to recover these wrecks there was insufficient care shown, in many cases, with the preservation of the recovered artefacts. I was involved then, and will freely admit to that. It was very much a race to find items in those days, but the result was often that groups, collections, individuals and even museums lost their way or their interest. There are many cases in point; The Essex Aviation Group, The Wealden Group, London Air Museum, Severnside Aviation Society….I could go on and on and on with my list….

Whilst some items were recovered and preserved and are still with us, some ended up being dumped or scrapped including much of Tony Graves and John Tickner’s London Air Museum, for instance. In some cases, participants lost interest or died and the items they held just vanished. The late Peter Foote had a vast collection when he died. Much went to Me109 restoration projects and I ended up buying in from his estate much of the well picked over residue. I have moved it all on, and only recently got rid of the last.

In the case of the Beresford items, this went to the four winds and are now largely in a whole variety of private collections. I think the prop hub, however, survives as a memorial to Sir Sydney Camm. Items from that Hurricane still surface from time to time since the way of the world now seems to be that these things go into fairly regular circulation. My old friend Pat Burgess (on that film) died just before Christmas and his vast collection, for instance, has just been sold by his widow.

Unfortunately, the enthusiasm of the 1970s in these recoveries had no thought (or very little) for the longer term picture and was very much blinded by a race to get there before someone else did. No point beating about the bush; it was very much a “trophy hunt” in some cases when it came to finding and recovering aircraft wrecks. That said, the cases of missing aircrew were comparitively rare in the overall picture of recoveries then being undertaken – some groups recovering two or three wrecks in one weekend!! Over one Easter weekend I went to five aircraft recoveries. When one looks back you can only ponder; “Where did it all disappear to?” Tons of it!

A long answer and an unfortunate tale. But there it is in brutal honesty, chaps.

Think we can safely say that Tangmere can fill us in…If he will admit that that was him under that 70’s hair cut !

What happened to the remains of the Hurricane?

Excellent find and good film !

mmitch :

Nice find Sir….enjoyed seeing that bit of history and I am sure the family were greatful for finally knowing his fate if a bit late ! I see they have just found a P-47 over iNormandy and its amazing the number of crashed aircraft in Normandy. Here below is a link to the crash !

Thanks

BlueNoser352!

Three stories sent to me by a friend in France…………. this from one of my favorite sites…. about the 101st Airborne Division in WW II ! Trigger Time !

http://triggertimeforum.yuku.com/topic/7121