Were Photos Taken Of All Halifaxes?

I have a halifax aircraft panel with a surprising amount of serials and stamps on it 🙁

Evening all,

I have now scanned all of my Grandfathers logbooks to PDF and have complied them all (500+ pages) into one PDF.

I am willing to send a copy to anyone who wishes to receive a copy (free).

His flying started in the war on Halifax’s and flew transport aircraft from then onwards until retirement on VC10’s in the early 70′.

If you want to receive a copy, please either PM me your address or email me at [email]vc10jlw@gmail.com[/email]

I am not charging for them, or postage, but have included details of a charity you may wish to donate to on the disc – but there’s no obligation to donate!

Andy

Some photos of H7-K when it made an emergency landing at Wethersfield look in catchats photos under planes and stills there’s an Avro Anso, P51s B17 among others. Google 416th Bomb Group

Thanks SoGlad – a nice little summary. Out of interest, where did you find it?

There certainly would have been some penalty for retaining the Gallay radiators, but I doubt that it was measured for such an interim build standard. It would fall somewhere between the versions with the two different engines, and I don’t recall seeing detailed figures for that. It may even have fallen into the variation between one aircraft and another – which was said to partially depend upon the company building them. The Merlin 22 made an improvement, but eased rather than solved all the performance problems of the type. At least part of the reason for going to the Merlin 22, certainly with Coastal Command, was the superior reliability of the later engine. Partly because they didn’t need to be thrashed so hard, perhaps?

There are some comparisons made in Appendix 4 of Merrick, but mainly they show very little difference or even reduction despite an extra 240hp, other than a 1000 ft drop in the service ceiling. The increase in weight of 1,500lb might explain some of that. The unknowns include the standard of the Series 1 for which these values were obtained/estimated, and how the actual performance of later production Series 1s had fallen below the early results. Taking these figures at face value, the worth of the Merlin 22s (and the drag reduction programme) would be placed in severe doubt!

I understand that shortfalls in component production would have meant that non-standard parts (based on the original engine design) would have been temporarily installed onto the assembled aircraft – such as the cases with the radiators types just discussed. All this in order to get the aircraft to the operational squadrons and tonnages of bombs on target, but would there have been a noticable difference in performance?

As in the case of the ….”late production model Series 1 (Specials) were fitted with Morris block radiators (presumably attached to Merlin 22 engines)”, compared with the original “Series 1 (Special), complete with …..Merlin 22s and retaining their Gallay radiators”; was there a recordable difference in performance? Perhaps an difference in optimal cruise altitude or speed, or higher/lower operating temperatures, 2-3% better range characteristics (arbitrary number here for discussion)?

Regards,
…geoff

Agreed Graham; and it seems to be manufacturer based.

Looking at JB910 (EE built), delivered new to 10 Sqn on 21 March 1943, the engines are shown as “Merlin 20”. That’s fully two months after HR691 was delivered to them. Obviously Mk II Series 1A (Spceial) aircraft were still being turned out with the “older” engines fitted.

He also says that “some late production model Series 1 (Specials) were fitted with Morris block radiators (presumably attached to Merlin 22 engines)”
Well in HR691 we seem to have a Series 1 (Special), complete with Z nose, Merlin 22s and retaining their Gallay radiators. Which seems to be the reverse of that.

Yes: I was looking for a photo I thought was in the book showing just that. I couldn’t find it on the 20th but there is one such example HR686/2J in the Coastal chapter, also Z nose. However, looking just a few lines higher than my quoted comments I find “…many of the early Series 1A were fitted with Merlin 22 engines but retained Gallay radiators…” HR691 appears to fit neither category, quite. The paragraph does begin “Due to the inevitable supply problems and speed with which the modifications could be incorporated onto the production lines, …”

These HR-serialled aircraft are all off the HP line, and suggests that the new engines arrived there before the new nose or radiators.

Is this of any use?

‘On Saturday, 19 February 1944, (a part of) the aircraft of the 10 squadron (RAF), took off for a mission to Leipzig in Germany from a station (airfield) in or near Melbourne.
One of the crew members was Pilot Officer J L Walker. He departed for his mission at 23:24.
He flew with a Handley Page Halifax (type II, with serial LW324 and code ZA-J). His mission and of the other crew members was planned for Sunday, 20 February 1944.’

[ATTACH=CONFIG]235433[/ATTACH]

He also says that “some late production model Series 1 (Specials) were fitted with Morris block radiators (presumably attached to Merlin 22 engines)”
Well in HR691 we seem to have a Series 1 (Special), complete with Z nose, Merlin 22s and retaining their Gallay radiators. Which seems to be the reverse of that.

That’s surprisingly early, to me anyway. HR679 was the first test example of a Series 1a, beginning its flight trials in December 1942. Perhaps the fitting of the extended nacelles had delayed trials, but the serials are close. Merrick actually says “…many of the early Series 1a were fitted with Merlin 22 but retained their Gallay radiators…”

Indeed so. I’m looking at Form 78 for HR691, Mk II Series 1 (Special). ToC by 10 Sqn on 30 Jan, 1943 it is fitted with “Merlin 22” engines. Photographs of it show it fitted with Gallay radiators.

Gallay radiators were on the Merlin X and XX. Morris block radiators were fitted to Merlin 22s. Except for a few examples (aren’t there always).

Hi Chadders,

Thanks for the contact – I’ll drop him an email and hope for the best!

Rest assured, if I get a copy, you’ll be the first to know!

It is a bit spooky how many dates end up like that!

I popped down to the local library today to see if they had a copy of Melbourne ten (no joy!) and had a flick through Bomber command losses of 1944 whilst there. I was shocked to see that of the 79 aircraft listed in the book as being lost that night, only seven or eight of the crews all survived as POW. All of the others had at least one fatality, if not no survivors.

Does make it hit home how lucky I am to be here!

Thanks for posting that. Very enlightening and please to see that all survived.

For Form78, try this guy in the first instance. He sorted mine out for me.

[email]bryan.legate@rafmuseum.org[/email]. Hopefully he his still around. Just noticed this, strange, his letter to me is Dated 20th Feb, 2012. Coincidence.

BTW, if you do get hold of a copy Iof it’s Form 78 I’d really like to know the date LW324 was taken on charge by 10 Sqn. Thanks.

Duplicate post deleted!

Thank-you all for your replies.

Sorry for my delay in replying – I wanted to have a good look through my Grandpa’s log books again to try and hunt out some more info before replying and think it’s quite appropriate to reply tonight – 71 years since we has shot down this evening!

I’ve always had a suspicion it was a B MkII series 1A, and found a note in his logbooks saying it had Merlin XXII’s. It looks like from all the posts above, that it is safe to assume it had the later rectangular fins.

Is there a link anyone has regarding applying for the Form 78 at all? Are the held at Cosford?

‘BTW. Is your grandad Sgt. B/D.R.G. Walker, MU gunner?’ My Grandpa was P/O (at the time) Jack Lesley Walker (known as Johnnie – after the Whiskey!) and was the pilot

I’ve scanned in up to and including the night in question from the logbooks – 19-20 February 1944 – see pics below:

As far as I’m aware, he met up with the gentleman who shot him down a number of years later – I’ll try and dig that photo out sometime!

What engines were the Gallay drum type radiator fitted to CeBro?

I did do some research at the National archives and wrote down all the 10 Squadron sorties that LW324 was involved in, but I cannot find that paperwork anywhere!

Thats interesting bearoutwest! Think I might need to try and find a copy of Bomber Squadrons of the RAF too!

BTW – I sniffed out a copy of Melbourne Ten today. An absolute BARGAIN at £25 🙂

From “Bomber Squadrons of the RAF and their aircraft” by Philip Moyes:
a) No 78 Squadron,
– shows two photos of Halifax B.II Series IA aircraft, both circa September 1943 (as captioned)
– LW235 EY-B has clear plexiglass nose, 4-gun mid-upper turret and triangular fins;
– EY-E (no serial noted) has clear plexiglass nose, 4-gun mid-upper turret and rectangular fins.
– no mention is made specifically of LW324; but similar mark/series LW223 and LW300 are listed on the strength of 78 Squadron (though list doesn’t include the photographed/captioned LW235*).
b) No 10 Squadron,
– No photograph of B.II Series IA aircraft, and no specific mention of LW324; but LW234 ZA-X was on the strength of 10 Squadron.
– there is a photo of Halifax B.II Series I (Special) BB324 (also ZA-X) photographed in April 1943 (as captioned) and reportedly lost on raid against Mulheim 22/23-Jun-1943. This aircraft has plated over turret nose (i.e turret removed and solid fairing installed), no mid-upper turret and triangular fins.

*Note that the lists of aircraft on the squadron strength was intended as an example and not a comprehensive list.

From “British Military Aorcraft Serials 1912-1966” by Bruce Robertson:
Halifax B.II aircraft manufactured by the English Electric Co (in the LW223-724 serial range):
LW223-246
LW259-301
LW313-345
I think the remainder are B.III aircraft (as cryptically denoted in the remarks column).

Hope this is of some help and not just adding to the confusion.

Regards,
…geoff

Well this is getting quite interesting on a couple of levels now.

I originally stated that there was no specific mention of LW324 in Melbourne 10. That was incorrect. On page 71 it states”…but 13 out of 17 including LW324, Len Broadhurst, briefed for the raid claimed attacking the primary target”. The raid in question is the Leipzig raid of 3/4 December, 1943! At that time LW324 was with 78 Sqn and apparently set off for Leipzig with them! http://www.jankersten.nl/williamuyen/19431203.html

I’m inclined to believe the ref to LW324 in Melbourne 10 is a typo error. Either in the book or maybe even in the ORB and carried over into the book. Unfortunately the 10 Sqn ORBs I have do not include December 1943, so I am unable to shed further light on that.

The Air Ministry’s definition of a Series 1a was that it had the Morris block radiator. To be more consistent with normal practice, it would have been the fitting of the Merlin 22, but so it goes. The squadrons seem to have regarded the new nose as the distinguishing feature. Merrick does show one example of an aircraft with Merlin 22s and the Gallay radiators (JD300) and states that there were some variations in fit around the change-over in production (in both directions). It is still a little surprising to find them on one as late as LW343 – perhaps there was a temporary supply problem?