When Is An Auster Not Just An Auster

Edskarf

No details save that it had a flight of 1 hour 5 minutes and flew again the following day

KSK was involved in an accident which resulted it going over on its back at Teleformin, flown at the time by Tommy Briggs

Pat Tool was the pilot who did a forced landed KSK in the river bed in the Sepik district (16th June 1953). She flew as a commercial pilot in New Guinea 1952/3

It would appear that Gibbs had the following Auster J5
VH-KSD, VH-KSK, VH-KSQ, VH-KSS, VH-KST, VH-KSU, VH-KSX.

cheers

The CASA newsletter refers to 10 Austers being operated in New Guinea. A quick search suggests there were indeed 10 J.5s in NG circa 1947-50 but three of them were not owned by Gibbes. Perhaps Sepik Airways was the servicing agent. Can anyone clarify this situation?

KSK may not be the only survivor of the Gibbes fleet as VH-BYY started life as VH-KST in NG or at least they share the same construction number. The current registration dates from 2006 so, all being well since, it is still with us (or parts of KST possibly).

Do the log books of KSK show details of an accident to KSK at Dolikikir, NG on 29 March 1957 ? There is an entry in The National Archives of Australia catalogue for this incident but unfortunately the full report is not available on line. It might be worthwhile purchasing a copy.

Mark

your help is ggreatly appreciated and I thought I would check the log books to see what else I could find.

KSK flew 2555 hours on commercial ops in PNG
On 22 June 1953, KSK was dismantled and carried to some place called Drukikin after a forced landing in/beside the Keang River. It was repaired at Drukikin and then test flown to Wewak. The LAME was a Mr Brearley.and a Mr K Haslett (don’t know if I have spelling correct – reading running writing)

This aeroplane is becoming more interesting by the minute (Interesting for an Auster). I can feel myself becoming attracted to the old girl!

I will endeavor to get the history documented in one place because someone in the future might see this aeroplane as meeting the criteria of “significant” to the aviation history of PNG

To the Pommies reading this PNG was once an Australian Territory and Australia still shovels bucket loads of aid in their direction. PNG is also Australia’s closest neighbor and Australian pilots played a huge role in the development of PNG. It has dreadful flying conditions, 13,000 high mountains and very short one-way airstrips at high altitude in many places. Lots and lots of Australian pilots made their last flights in PNG (ie they died in flying accidents).

PNG during WW2 was where Australian troops beat the Japs – that being the first time the Japs had a big set-back during WW2.

Poms have their BofB, Australia has the battles in PNG as the Japs headed for Australia

cheers

Ross,

Other than the last few of a breed, or “Wright Flyer” examples of aircraft of significant events, the best place for aircraft are in the air, and so if KSK keeps flying all the better to tell its story

But in answer to your original post of “When is an Auster Not just not an Auster” I think the thread has shown that with KSK, and I have enjoyed discovering its apparant significance, and glad to have assisted you in discovering more about it too.

The important thing is for that significance to be recorded and ideally presented with the aircraft where ever it goes, history is lost if its not shared, and otherwise it becomes “just another Auster”.

Hopefully you will acquire photos of it in PNG service and more details of its exploits.

There is probably an AHSA Member who is the walking / talking expert on PNG post war operations or Gibbes Sepik Airways specifically, and I would suggest you contact your local state branch and see what records exist?

regards

Mark Pilkington

Mark

KSK likely fills the bill and certainly you have raised a number of points I didn’t think about.

However, unless that museum were to cross my palm with a lot of gold (to overcome my extreme dislike of flying aeroplanes being turned into statics) then KSK is likely to remain with me and my family for many years into the future as a flying aeroplane!

However what you have pointed out makes it all the more interesting and helps me overcome my past attitude of “Its a cold night, throw another auster on the fire please!”.

I never thought I would find out what you have told me about KSK and the possibility of it being the oldest surviving commencial aircraft that operated in PNG – now that is a real surprise to me and shows how useful this forum can be – even for subjects that were floated “tongue in check”!

cheers

Ross

.
The aircrafts service with Sepik is certainly worth researching, and I am reasonably confident that it is the sole surviving aircraft from their fleet.

I do recall the last Norseman in Australia was sold to Canada, 3 of Gibbes aircraft returned to Australia and were used by Col Pay for spraying, the last survivor was exported to Canada where it crashed in 1978?

You might wish to buy copies of the following books to see if the aircraft is specifically mentioned and if photos are included?

There is his autobiography “You live but once”

http://www.biblioz.com/lp25763859667.html

R.H. GIBBES. Sydney. 1994. First Edition, signed by the Author;. pages xii, 474, index, appendices A to E inclusive Profusely illustrated with b/w photographs of Bobby Gibbes wartime experiences as fighter pilot and 3 Squadron RAAF operational flying in the Western Desert (North Africa) and also photographs of aircraft and staff of Gibbes Sepik Airways, Papua New Guinea. pictorial hardcover gilt lettering on front cover and spine; mint condition new. Very scarce out-of-print. Bobby Gibbes is one of Australia’s most famous airforce fighter aces in World War 2. He subsequently went to New Guinea and founded a bush airline Gibbes Sepik Airways which flew a variety of passenger and cargo aircraft – the Auster, Norseman, Lockheed Lodestar, Junkers (one the former German Field Marshall Kesselring’s personal aircraft) – later re-engined with Wirraway engines. Gibbes established Tremearne coffee plantation in the Wahgi Valley in Central Highlands of New Guinea.

As well as a book just on his career in Sepik by James Sinclair.

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Sepik-Pilot-Sinclair-James-Patrick-/140420190703

Book Details and Description

Sinclair James Patrick

Sepik Pilot: Wing Commander Bobby Gibbes – D.S.O. – D.F.C.

Description: 189 pages. Ex-Aviation Library. Book and Jacket appear to have hardly been read and are both in Fine condition throughout. Gibbes The Sepik Pilot Started With One Tiny Auster Monoplane And Built Up A Remarkable Airline -Gibbes Sepik Airways – The Very Lifeline Of The Most Remote Of The Outstations Of New Guinea.

VH-KSK isn’t the Auster referred to as being used to start the airline, Gibbes started Sepik in December 1947 at Wewak, it later was taken over by Mandated Airlines in 1958.

Where as VH-KSK was first registered in May 1948, there are some interesting details in a CASA newsletter of 1998 below.

http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_assets/main/fsa/1998/mar/37-45.pdf

50 years ago
December 1947: Bobby and Jean Gibbes
bought their first Auster J5 VH-KSD to
transport supplies to their trade stores in
Papua New Guinea. By January 1948, Gibbes
Sepik Airlines was established. A total of ten
Austers serviced the demand for charters;
these were replaced by Norsemen to increase
cargo capacity. The airline was sold in
November 1958 to Mandated Airlines,
following an accident near Mendi which
resulted in the first death on a Gibbes Sepik
flight

VH-KSD was a J5 owned by Sepik and crashed in 1948 at Tadji.

VH-KST was a J5 also owned by Sepik that crashed in PNG in 1950, as was VH-KSS, I dont know how many other Austers from the fleet other than VH-KSK survive?

The number of aircraft in Sepik’s fleet, and pilots employed, may mean that its logbook does not show any / many flights by Gibbes himself?, so I am not sure there is a personal link of great significance, (as mentioned in the previous post his Cri Cri would be the most significant personal aircraft as he built it and flew it privately.)

However the fact that Sepik was apparantly started in 1947 using an Auster, had 10 Auster’s in the fleet, and KSK is apparantly the last surviving aircraft from the fleet, would seem to make KSK quite a significant aircraft to PNG post war aviation history. Again the proposed National Museum of PNG would be an obvious interested party to eventually acquire it and display it?.

In fact it would be interesting to see what other PNG transport aircraft still survive let alone are still flying, there is the wrecks of the Ford Trimotor and a Junkers W34 in PNG from pre-war days, those are apparantly recovered and stored for the National Museum in Port Morseby? the wreck of one of Gibbes Ju-52’s survived for many years intact but has now apparantly been burnt and scrapped?

KSK “might” have the status of the oldest complete surviving commercial PNG aircraft?, and perhaps the second oldest complete surviving PNG civil aircraft?

I.e. as in one that was based and operated there rather than a transient visitor, where as the DH60 gipsy moth at Moorabbin did two flights to PNG pre war, as did one of the surviving Westland Widgeons.

I think the oldest surviving aircraft to have been based in PNG would be Roy Fox’s Klemm Swallow that was used for missionary work pre war.

The Ed Coates collection has this picture of KSK when it was restored at Point Cook in 1988.

regards

Mark Pilkington

Mark

Interesting point, about it being the sole surviver of Gibbs Sepic Airways, by the way its VH-KSK, not VH-KRK

Here is a link to what it looks like at the moment
http://jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=6672182

I wonder if there are any photos of what it looked like like when owned by Gibbs Sepic Airways. I actually know a woman (now in here 80’s) who flew it for Gibbs and put it on its back trying to do a forced landing on the banks of the Sepic River in PNG whilst employed by Gibbs.

She has hit me up for a flight when I finish the bit of maintenance being done on it.

cheers

I own Aeronca C3 G-AEFT, it has a delightful history, was owned by Arthur Orde-Hume and Lt.Cdr John Sproule amongst others and is a joy to own and operate. I do not for one minute believe the history of this particular aeroplane adds to it’s ‘££ value’ in any great sense although I hold the opinion that the government should give me a large tax rebate for having the downright good taste and decency to look after the old girl!

Refering to the ‘plane not my wife, although she probably wishes I paid her as much attention.:mad:

I have always thought of the Aeronca as a very unusuial looking aeroplane, but with stacks of character. It probably even looked old when it was first built!

Incidentally, I remember ‘FT at Southend in the late fifties when it was owned by Bernard Collins. He was the Airport Commandant at the time and later became a Director of Channel Airways. I always enjoyed wathcing hime take the old girl out for a spin!

.
When it comes to the warbug option the Auster mk III wins me over an L4 anyday, and I actually got to the point of buying one until the sale was withdrawn some years ago.

I think the problem with Tigermoths in Australia is that they ALL have a service history, so the history of any one in particular doesnt attract much interest, I prefer to see them in their wartime markings but have been pleased to see the QAM acquire a static from Bull Creek with an intention of retaining it is its cropdusting configuration with rollover truss and (I think) exposed rear fuselage frame.

The dwindling population of airworthy Proctors in Australia is a concern with the risk more will be exported to the land of the long white cloud to be “re-birthed” as Vega Gull impersonations. “DUL” is currently advertised overseas so it is quite possible yours might end up being the only airworthy example in Australian skies?

Most static examples in Australia (VH-BQR, mk2, Bull Creek, VH-AVG, mk2 Alice Springs, VH-FEP, mk1, National Museum) are in civil guise, the other two, are in ficticious military schemes.

VH-AUC mk1, Moorabbin is dressed as the RAAF’s A75-1 in a silver scheme however that was a Proctor mark IV from the RAF as NP336 rather than a mark 1, and it is expected VH-AUC will eventually return to civilian markings reflecting its post war Australian service. (the “RAAF” scheme arose from its temporary storage/display at Point Cook in the RAAF Museum in the early 1980s, following its restoration, and the lack of undercover display at Moorabbin at the time)

VH-BCM, mk V, Narellan, is also dressed as the same aircraft, but in a camoflauge scheme and wearing the RAF serial NP336, probably a far better presentation of that history than VH-AUC given the closer similarities between a mk 4 and mk 5 Proctor, and I suspect BCM will remain in those colours, and is probably very appropriate to do so.

On that basis a return of your airframe to its original wartime RAF colours would be quite appropriate and different to current displays.

Regardless of any $$ value derived from its specific links with Bobby Gibbes the role of your Auster VH-KRK as the sole survivor from Sepik Airways would seem more than enough to encourage its retention and preservation either in the air or as a static exhibit beyond just a engine donor? perhaps the proposed new National Museum planned in PNG as an outworkings of the Swamp Ghost recovery would be interested in acquring it?

regards

Mark Pilkington

Mark

Maybe if it is the “warbug” that is of interest then its an Auster Mk3 vs an Piper L4 grasshopper.

Now I think my “Weapon of Choice” in that case would be the Mk3 with Aussie history

Lots of cubs are ending up with recreational aircraft regos because of all-up weight considerations.

Its strange that in the world of Tiger Moths, in Australia its former miltary history is of little more than passing interest. For instance my Tiger VH-JRS was A17-300 and has good provenance.

My Proctor on the other hand its military history is of great interest to me and not all that concerned (just passing interest) about its civilian history.

I must say, I do find the Auster’s connection with Gibbs Sepic Airways and Bobby Gibbs is starting to focus my attention and generate some interest.

Originally my main purpose in buying it was to have a spare Gipsy Major engine for my Tiger Moth.

cheers

.

This is a topic of interest having got close to acquiring austers in the past, as well as contemplating a cub or cuby kit, so I guess I can reflect my own thought processes?

I think the price of Piper Cubs versus Austers in Australia simply reflects supply and demand.

Last time I looked at Bill Baker’s Auster book I think there was something like 50+ Austers on the Australian register and another 20+ projects, where as pre-war @2-3 j-2’s were imported to Australia and the current numbers of Cubs in Australia today is probably still under 20? with most being recent imported j-3s.

If you decide to buy an Auster / Cub the quantity and prices of those on the market will drive how much you spend, cubs are typically more expensive than austers so most buyers will buy a cheap auster.

There are few if any cub projects in Australia but still a number of auster projects so that tends to also hold down the price of flying austers, as it is seen as a low cost entry (is it really? smiles) into an auster or antique aircraft.

The cost to buy a flying cub (or project) in the USA and ship it out, pushes the local cub price up, (ie its a floor price to local sales) and even encourages the kits of Cuby’s being built locally.

ie

supply of austers large – probably meeting/exceeding demand – price is low
supply of cubs low, – probably below demand – price is high

I dont think it comes down to attractiveness of cubs over austers.

The 4 place austers dont really compete with cubs as much as with other 4 seat types, and the cirrus engines probably cause a bit of a devaluation against the easier to maintain C-65 / A-65 engines in the cubs, but even the Gipsy major may be more expensive to support than the cub’s american flat fours?

There does seem to be more interest in the Cub as an L-4 in the “warbug” market over the auster in the form of the Mk V or AOP6 , unless you focus on the wartime mark III, but that is a very small consideration in the Australian market in my opinion.

regards

Mark Pilkington

Scotavia

My old man once had a Humber Super Snipe series 2 – real tank of an car – but I digress. It is the same in Australia a Piper Cub is a far more valuable aeroplane (tandem vs side-by-side seating > more room)

cheers

I sense a similiar situation with classic cars. In the Uk there is a type called Morris Minor, it is very basic and not very attractive,however it has a huge following and attracts high prices for class one condition.
yet other types such as Humber Sceptre are undervalued in my view and much better.

I love the Auster and just wonder why Piper Cubs are more valued, is it just the engine cost?

Gooday All

What I find interesting is that people pay a lot for a bit of bent metal dug up from a crash site yet when it comes to flying aeroplanes there is little interest save for a couple of types.

I guess its the demographic, people with flyable aeroplanes are too busy with keeping them flying to get too hung up about “Provenance”. Its important but not as important as flying the machine!

In the case of VH-KSK, – yes it is the real aeroplane – the real deal, not just a spitfire whose only connection with the past is a dataplate! (wash my mouth out again I mentioned boring spitfires again- shame!)

Bobby Gibbs flew this aeroplane, from memory I think he crashed/repaired it as well and its history is well documented.

For those that don’t know about Wing Commander Bobby Gibbs, he is a Kitty Hawk pilot/Ace (10 aeroplanes) who operated in the western desert and in the south-west Pacific. He was nominated for the VC for saving a fellow pilot who had force landed in the desert. He also was a part of the “Morotai Mutiny” in the RAAF. His activities make interesting reading – see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobby_Gibbes

Having said all that and back to Austers – well they are ugly (when fitted with a Gipsy) and I think that’s part of the problem! All my time since becoming involved with vintage aeroplanes (since 1976) people have been forecasting that Austers will increase in value – I am still waiting!

A British Bulldog is also ugly but some people are attracted to that!

cheers

I own Aeronca C3 G-AEFT, it has a delightful history, was owned by Arthur Orde-Hume and Lt.Cdr John Sproule amongst others and is a joy to own and operate. I do not for one minute believe the history of this particular aeroplane adds to it’s ‘££ value’ in any great sense although I hold the opinion that the government should give me a large tax rebate for having the downright good taste and decency to look after the old girl!

Refering to the ‘plane not my wife, although she probably wishes I paid her as much attention.:mad:

.

I havent read his autobiography “You only live but once” – is the Auster mentioned or showcased in that book?

“Significance” is an often bandied about term in the warbird and antique aircraft world but it has formal definition in heritage objects, and is closely associated with “Provenance” which is bound up not only in the story of the object but also its intactness or originality

http://significance.collectionscouncil.com.au/home

A topic often enthusiastically debated here by “purists” is that a brand new spitfire reproduction with an original dataplate attached really has no claim to the provenance of the airframe it claims to be, nor any significance deriving from that provenance. The Warbird movement has no formal documentation or standards that compete with, or counters the authoritive definitions used elsewhere for all other heritage objects, but of course there are still many who consider grandfather’s broom is still intact despite total replacement of both head and handle.

And of course at this stage, there is absolutely nothing to suggest VH-KSK isnt substantially still the Auster that flew in PNG.

I think the first issue is to determine how it derives its significance?

a possible simple analysis, (subject to specific details) would be:

– personal aircraft of Bobby Gibbes? (was it? or just an aircraft in his airline?)
(he is probably more closely associated with his Cri Cri that he personally built and flew?)
– Only surviving aircraft from Gibbes Sepik Airways – (tick)
– Significance in early postwar PNG flying – (not sure?)
(is that a general association via use in PNG or did it feature in a specific significant event?)

– Is it significant as an Auster? (Apparantly not, just a J5 Adventurer)

Then the next question is to value that significance from a heritage value.

ie
1 . Is the aircraft of world or international significance based on above – unlikely?

2. Is the aircraft of national significance to Australia based on above –
unlikely?

3. Is the aircraft of national significance to PNG – quite possibly? as the only surviving aircraft from the Gibbes Sepik Airways, regardless of any specific notable flights in its own right, but more so if there are specific deeds of note.

Then the value of that significance from a commercial or sale value, this usually translates from supply and demand, ie how many BoB Spitfires are available versus how many Millionnaires are seeking to own one?

In this case there is not a strong vintage aircraft movement in PNG or even an Active PNG National Museum likely to pursue the aircraft, hence the value returns to its significance in the Australian Auster market.

There doesnt seem to be a strong argument that it has any National significance to Australia that would cause its purchase and retirement into a museum at great cost.

The relationship with Bobby Gibbes would attract some interest, but has’nt apparantly previously caused a bidding war for the aircraft, hence I suspect the market would still treat it as “just an Auster”

Happy to be educated as to what importance or “significance” does apply to the Auster other than its general use by Sepik?

regards

Mark Pilkington

Sadly, this is surely a Straw Graspification Situation.

“When is an Auster not just an Auster ? ” . Never, really, though I did see one with a good crop of raspberries, so I suppose that one was a greenhouse!

However, a new era of appreciation may be almost upon us, as the government urges us to embrace the post-recession age of austerity;).