John De-Little

John (“Jack”) De Little

I have revisited a the paper work my mother acquired relating to the death of (Uncle) Jack De Little and there is just nothing that emerges from this. I have rather negative responses from Parliamentary Under Secretary for Defence, (1999) Peter Kilfoyle, and from Dr lewis Moonie, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State at the MOD, also 1999. There was no Board of Inquiry on record, and RN Lossiemouth have a one line day book entry. The National Archives of Scotland have no records. My mother also contacted Grampian Police for info on Elgin Procurator Fiscal’s records, (nothing) and also the CEO at the local newspaper “Northern Scott” in Elgin. Even his death certificate shows no cause of death, “signed ” by P F Atkinson, RN, Executive Commander at Lossiemouth feb 1951. Looks like one big cover up to me, or played down almost to a point of illegality!!! John

London Gazette Id’s him as

John DE LITTLE

Would that be the same through all of his records?

Richard

John (“Jack”) De Little

Thanks for all your comments. I am humbled in so far as my understanding is confined to family history, or an interpretation of it. If someone said he was a Battle of Britain pilot, that is something i was quite prepared to believe!! Who wouldn’t want an uncle to be a hero!!
So please keep up ( or is that down?) digging and I will ask my mother for her recollections prompted by your comments
Thanks again
John

London Gazette Id’s him as

John DE LITTLE

I was wondering how this chap would have been identified in the records. Is he listed as De Little, DeLittle, deLittle, Delittle or Little?

Richard

Air Ministry, ist January, 1945.
The KING has been graciously pleased to
approve the following awards: —

Warrant Officers.
John DE LITTLE (745291), R.A.F.V.R.

So he would not have been on Air Force List 1940

There is no evidence (that I can see) that he flew in the Battle of Britain per se. (ie that he was a Battle of Britain fighter pilot).

It could well be that he flew during the Battle of Britain, but with a different command – eg Bomber, Coastal, Training etc etc. Lots of possibilities. On the other hand, the possibility cannot and should not be excluded that this was a man who ought to qualify for inclusion on the BofB roll but has been missed or excluded for some reason. One or two cases like this seem to come forward every now and again, and we have even had some names previously included now deleted.

Either way, it would be fascinating to learn more of this mans possible role in the Battle of Britain. As a matter of interest, he does not seem to appear in the Air Force List for the relevant period in 1940 but this does not exclude the possibility that he was an NCO pilot at this time.

I am not at all sure if speculation as to cause of death is helpful here or indeed welcome or appropriately respectful, but here goes with apologies…

If he was standing well clear to observe, being struck by an aircraft in flight or the taxi, take-off or landing phase seems unlikely, not impossible by any means and yes, I have seen the various videos on YouTube which speak to the contrary.

However, I wonder if he was closely observing or hand-propping in the start-up phase and this was a ‘prop-strike’ incident?

Respects to Mr De Little.

John (“Jack”) De Little

thanks Kev…. I think he was a civilian, when he died, but within the auspices of the RAF… here as a mere numpty civilian 60 years later I can’t comment with much confidence. Will check with my Mum. Already your info is much appreciated. He had divorced by this time, and indeed his parents, my Grandparents had such a low opinion of his ex wife that it was some time before they told her. My mother was incensed by this. His parents were so Victorian they packed him off to London to join the air ministry but never really understood what drive him I think. Not sure if he was a hero to them or a disappointment. My father stayed in the civil service after the war to appease them…. and died of boredom, almost literally! Keep the info coming!! John

His death certificate states that he was a Civillian , Maintenance Test Pilot under instruction with the Royal Navy.
He died aged 31 single at RNAS Lossiemouth at 2.45pm 15-2-1951. His parents names were given but no wifes name.
There was a precognition (enquiry) which gives no information about the event except “aircraft accident”. It does not say Flying Accident so may have been a ground accident.

Scots Law . Precognition is
a.
the examination of witnesses and other parties before a trial in order to supply a legal ground for prosecution.
b.
the evidence established in such an examination.

This is very curious and I can’t do much other than to muddy the waters even more, but, he does not appear to be listed among those airmen who flew operationally during the Battle of britain. Perhaps Tangmere 1940 if he’s around could confirm this for us?

His Air Force Cross appears to have been awarded on the 1st January 1945 whilst he held the rank of Warrant Officer. Perhaps this was a new year’s Honour?

He does not appear in the Armed Forces Roll of Honour so perhaps he was working in a civilian capacity at the time of his death?

He appears in the London Gazette for 1936 as joining the Clerical Class of the Ministry of Labour.

Not sure where else to go with this.

Regards,

kev35

John (“Jack”) De Little

Look forward to any news at all you can find…. a tragic and pointless loss of such a life deserves more explanation and understanding, even if it was 60 years ago
John

Lossiemouth would have been HMS Fulmar in 1951. A naval Tiger Moth (T6094) crashed on that day, but I can’t find a location….

What a fascinating (and hopefully not final) update to the subject, many thanks for joining and adding your valuable family history aspect to it.
I’m thinking that the Lossie ORB for the period should cover the accident.

John (“Jack”) De Little

I spotted this thread whilst idly googling my own name. Not a coincidence since I am named after the subject of this thread, John De little.
John ( know as Jack, so i will call him that) was my father’s brother and both were born in Gosforth, Newcastle, though the family came from York ( his parents,next to whom he is buried, were Roland and Edith). He joined the air ministry a little before the war and volunteered for the RAF just as soon as he could. ( I have his flying helmet still with “my ” name in it”) He flew in the Battle of Britain, which self evidently he survived, flew after the war in the Berlin airlift and then flew ( I guess) for the RAF, not sure, as a test pilot. All we know is that he was required to observe, I think, a new plane taking off. The plane slewed across the runway and, I guess, ran him over somehow. The mystery, which clearly has exercised the minds of several in this thread, was the dismal lack of enquiry, record keeping etc. There was an entry in the day book at Lossiemouth where he was killed but no more. In recent years, my mother Joan De Little, spent considerable energy writing to officials, MPs etc trying to find out more, but she found nothing of any substance. He was a great man, a boy’s hero, and I always regret never knowing him. He had one son, Rodney John, who lives in Bolney in Sussex. If I can tell you any more I will, but not sure there is much to tell. If you find out any more through connections then of course do let me know. ( [email]johndelittle789@btinternet.com[/email])
ps just to add to the story, the day he was killed was the very day my sister was born, 15/2/51…. a weird day for my father!

Regarding pilots involved in post-major test flight programmes, and how much this dangerous work has been overlooked – A friend of the family who captained Lancasters over Germany during the war went on to perform these flights post-war and said that this was MUCH hairier work!

Yes it did seem a bit odd..

It was the “test pilot” followed by the “killed in a flying accident” that made me take note.

He must have been very close to his parents as they were buried in the same grave in 59 & 60.

I guess that it must have been a personal flying accident or as a passenger as there are no obvious service losses at that time (A Sunderland was lost on 16th Feb).

He could have been abroad I guess…

Anyway thank-you for all your replies….. I was just curious. The Service graves are scattered throughout York cemetery not in one place so I tend to wander around and spot unusual ones like that.

Cheers,

Paul.

Just thinking out aloud, isn’t a bit unusual to mention that he was a test pilot, and to give a cause of death on a headstone like that?

Doh!

But in my defence, well, I can’t say a damned thing. Feeling stupid seems to be a recurring theme for me this week.

Regards,

kev35

Wel…..

Killed in a flying accident 15th February 1951

seems unambiguous! 😀

However, could he have simply been a passenger on an airliner that crashed, or as already said, a light aircraft, not whilst “working” in a test pilot role?

Anything in York local newspaper archives?