Me. 262 in action

I seem to remember something written by a defected NK Mig pilot to the effect that the NK pilots received combat training in China in Mig-9s/Yak-15/17s (he described straight wings & engine(s) under the forward fuselage).

Their early combat sorties were from Chinese airfields, as those in NK were damaged by USAF B-29 strikes.

In the first year or so of the war, most of the Mig-15s encountered by UN forces were piloted by Russians, with the NK pilots only starting to get them in 1951.

The defector, No Kum-sok never mentioned NK MiG-9’s in his book. The NK’s and Chinese were trained on two seat Yak-17UTI’s, in China, per many sources, but there’s no evidence that type was ever used within NK during the war. Chinese fighter units also had MiG-9’s, but as mentioned, they never claim to have used them over Korea.

The early combat sorties of the first NK MiG-15 unit were actually from Uiju, NK. This was noticed at the time by UN side: in November 1951 MiG’s appeared for the first time on a field inside NK. This was No’s unit. F-86’s strafed some of these a/c on the ground, their only official ground claims, as related in both US records and No’s book. Eventually B-29 night bombing of the field forced the NK unit to relocate to Antung across the Yalu along with the Soviet and Chinese MiG-15 units, as also related by No in “A MiG-15 to Freedom”.

The initial fighter outfit of the KPAAF (‘North Korean AF’) was entirely composed of Yak-9P’s (postwar all metal version) and a few remaining Yak-9M’s (1944 production, left behind by occupying Soviet AF units in late 40’s)though it’s not clear the latter were ever used in combat. A large volume of KPAAF documents were captured when NK was invaded later in 1950; daily flight schedules, maintenance records, pilot’s individual flight logs etc. mainly from just before the war. No other fighter types show up in any of those documents, whereas the order of battle of Yak-9’s can be determined pretty much down to the individual a/c.

There were some supposed US sightings of Yak jet types in the early months (pre-MiG-15 period, June-Oct 1950) as well as Lavochkin types, P-39/63, P-51, etc. mentioned in US combat reports and summaries, MiG-9’s I don’t recall ever seeing mentioned in that period. But the non-Yak-9 fighter sightings in the early months were almost surely mistaken (with exception of P-63’s strafed on Oct 2 1950, those were Soviet, the F-80’s had crossed into the USSR, as they later realized). And there are no official aerial victories v fighters in the pre-MiG-15 period except Yak-9 and La-7; the La-7’s were probably Yak-11’s. The NK’s had an operational unit of La-9’s by April 1951 (per Soviet documents) but none early in the war.

As the war went on, there were various sightings of what were believed to be straigtwing jets, sometimes identified as possible MiG-9’s, though often at night when identification was a lot less certain. That’s why I asked if there was a solid source about MiG-9’s in the KPAAF. It’s still an unknown, I don’t think we can just assume it. Standard Russian works on the MiG-9 don’t mention it, nor their known documents about aid to NK, and there’s no conclusive evidence of it in US records.

Joe

According to Galland and production references some 800 airframes were built, however with engines and spares for no more than 200 at one time, at most.
IIRC they ran on kerosine, which is a fuel bonus somewhat but I know various sources cite the Allied bombing effort was definitely telling here.

Also the Meteor FMk1 had a top speed around 415mph and the F3 (prior to nacelle modification) at 490mph giving the Me-262 a speed performance edge. Late series F3 though which might’ve reached the front in the second half of 1945 had a sea level speed of some 415mph but then other German models such as the Horton/Gotha 229 and the high speed Me-262 modification would have to be considered in such a historical-fantasy setting of continuing conflict against an existing German war machine.
Meteor squadrons sent to Europe began upgrading from the Mk1 to the early F3 in Jan45.

IIRC in early45 two squadrons of P-80A were sent to Italy for service evaluation and flew sorties in the combat zone, though no enemy aircraft were encountered. IMHO this aircraft is a better match for the 262 but wouldn’t have been in front line service in numbers for some months and has that turbine problem in early production.

The writing was on the wall for Germany, clearly to all the Allied leaders (and OKH) by early 1943. By early 45 the wind down was already in progress, hence the shock about the Ardennes offensive, Baseplate, even Lake Balaton (in terms of aerial complement), and continued resistance over Bavaria (put up a nice show against bombers there). Already by this time, according to records Churchill and his contemporaries across the Atlantic were discussing the postwar Soviet environment in western Europe, talks that started in mid-43.
Between Torch, Bagration and Normandy, Germany was simply done for and those offensives were planned well in advance (Normandy was originally mooted with mid-43 in mind but it was too soon for such a big operation and the weather would’ve turned before preparations could be made).
About the only people who were so insane they didn’t know the war was over by roughly Feb43 were the most fanatical Nazi party members, not their military commanders nor even their waffen field commanders weren’t well aware of it. Word is Rommel envisioned Allied invasion of western Europe with overwhelming air superiority by the time he left Africa, so was put in charge of the west wall by Hitler despite his blemished record. At home the loonies were living in some kind of crazed bohemian fantasy characterised beautifully in the German film Downfall.

Never heard that it was the technology that was lagging, but it was the materials and supplies of in abundance that was the problem.
interesting how the 262 is ‘knocked’ for not being produced quick enough, in high enough numbers, especially when you consider the conditions that Germany was under at the time.
Does anyone have figures of how many 262s were complete by a certain date, compared with the British Meteor?

Re the P-80, seem to recall having read somewhere that it had actually just entered service in Italy by the end of WWII?

Seem to recall that Hitler delaying the 262 production is a oft repeated myth and it was actually lagging technology.

I seem to remember something written by a defected NK Mig pilot to the effect that the NK pilots received combat training in China in Mig-9s/Yak-15/17s (he described straight wings & engine(s) under the forward fuselage).

Their early combat sorties were from Chinese airfields, as those in NK were damaged by USAF B-29 strikes.

In the first year or so of the war, most of the Mig-15s encountered by UN forces were piloted by Russians, with the NK pilots only starting to get them in 1951.

Oops yes MiG-9, it was a typo. MiG this, Yak that, you know how it can be 😛

From my understanding they were handed over in large numbers to China and some wound up in NK hands during the early stages. Some early US aerial kills are MiG-9 and Yak-9P and Yak-15 are both listed as types used by the NKAF with sources such as Wright-Patterson (only the Yak-9 piston engine aircraft was comparatively tested but various sites mention both Yak-15/17 and MiG-9 in passing).
Anecdotal at this stage I realise, since I haven’t been researching the Korean War specifically, lately or anything, just running on memory but it shouldn’t be hard to check.

Also the P/F-80 was very successful, but early series production engines for the A had a manufacturing issue with the turbine blades which caused several catastrophic accidents, some fatal. It wasn’t recognised until one pilot survived and explained how the tail section had sheared off mid-flight, which led investigators to turbine failure, then they found the manufacturing plant was using substandard procedure affixing turbing blades. It was fixed, but nobody knew about it in early 1945 and if in general service that year as a major front line type there would’ve been a lot of problems over this, for one the fleet would’ve been grounded just as it got up to number.

The other early Russian jet which was highly respected was the Yak-9 which by the Korean War was only just being replaced by the MiG-15 in Soviet use but was given to the Chinese in large numbers, thus operated by North Korea initially. These used twin remanufactured BMW-003 (RD-20) and again were noted not just for their manoeuvrability, but excellent reliability despite a problem with the NS-37 gun mounting.

The jet as mentioned was the MiG-9; the initial fighter outfit of the North Koreans was the prop Yak-9; unless you have a source saying the MiG-9 was ever provided to North Korea, that would be interesting. Chinese MiG-9’s were not used in the Korean War according to any Chinese account that I know of. American accounts mention Communist straight wing jet a/c sighted on various occasions, but could just be wrong, or perhaps captured F-80’s (several accounts specifically insist enemy F-80’s were sighted).

Joe

In terms of comparative jet performance, the Vampire wasn’t going to enter service by say Jan45 and the MkI Meteor hasn’t got a show against contemporaries (MkIII is a different story), so it comes down to the P-80A-1 and the Me-262A-1a, and both have some serious engine issues.

The P-80 Shooting star was very successful, it saw combat in Korea as the F-80. A lengthed 2 seat version became the T-33 trainer, still in service here in the Mexican Airforce

The first YAK jet fighter was the Yak-15.
The Yak-17 was a new design, but was very similar in appearance to the Yak-15.

Yak-15:

The other early Russian jet which was highly respected was the Yak-9 … These used twin remanufactured BMW-003 (RD-20) and again were noted not just for their manoeuvrability, but excellent reliability despite a problem with the NS-37 gun mounting.
.

MiG-9, surely?

I read a description of operational Yak-17UTI aircraft which remained in service from 1948 into 1960’s and had Soviet remanufactured Jumo 004B motors (RD-10). They were unchanged aside from improved materials and this trainer was noted in particular for its reliability, both this reason and its usefulness of converting pilots from piston to jet (it’s a Yak-3 with a jet motor strapped to it) were behind it continuing in service for so long.

The other early Russian jet which was highly respected was the Yak-9 which by the Korean War was only just being replaced by the MiG-15 in Soviet use but was given to the Chinese in large numbers, thus operated by North Korea initially. These used twin remanufactured BMW-003 (RD-20) and again were noted not just for their manoeuvrability, but excellent reliability despite a problem with the NS-37 gun mounting.

By the same token there was a critical flaw in the early series production engines in the P-80A which wasn’t identified until several failures, fatal crashes and severed tail planes, a simple quality control issue in turbine manufacture (rectified iirc during the third series of the first variant and retrofitted). So again it was a reliable and in this case excellent engine but if placed quickly into production under wartime conditions it was breaking ground that would’ve got a lot of pilots killed (a wartime pilot saying is “never fly a prototype or the A-variant of anything”).

The continued development of piston engine fighters until jet aircraft had fully come of age was a necessary one, the Me-262 (and P-80A, Meteor) were a sign of things to come but premature as the primary front line type in 1944-45. An Me-262 as has already been noted would flame if the pilot so much as sneezed hard, the early P-80A liked to sheer its tail off and send a turbine out its sides like a frizbee, and the MkI Meteor wasn’t any different in performance to a Bristol Beaufighter with much less loadbearing, reliability and armouring. Certainly their development pace was quick but 1945-6 was really the realm of the Griffon Spit, Centaur Tempest/Fury, P-47N, P-51H and Ta-152 had the war continued.

In terms of comparative jet performance, the Vampire wasn’t going to enter service by say Jan45 and the MkI Meteor hasn’t got a show against contemporaries (MkIII is a different story), so it comes down to the P-80A-1 and the Me-262A-1a, and both have some serious engine issues.
Messer has management problems related to steel quality, Shooting Star has critical failure ones related to turbine blade manufacturing process.
The two perform very differently to each other but are quite contemporary at least on paper. Messer has better handling qualities and similar performance at combat altitude (12-18,000ft), the P-80 is faster at low alt and whilst slower at high alt, it was noted for good handling characteristics at high alt (if the nose has ballast or a full ammo load).
I’d have to look up some material to give more detail but have test pilot reports (NACA and Wright-Patterson) of both types in an e-book.

Thank you for that clarification.

No German jet aircraft could have fought in the BOB, engine development boosts or not.

The Me-262 wasn’t even nearing flight tests during the BOB.
Its first test flight was April 18, 1941.

The He-280 was a bit earlier (first powered flight March 30, 1941), but still not flown during the BoB, as its first test flights (towed, unpowered) were conducted from September 22, 1940 on.

Improved funding would not have speeded their first flights much*, as the reduction in funding took place in February 1940, but it certainly would have speeded up the attainment of actual operational capability.

* the He-280 example shows that airframe design was a bit ahead of engine development, but the airframes weren’t ready by the BOB either.

The 262 was another instance where the allies have good cause to be grateful for Hitler! He delayed it coming into the battle by insisting that it be able to do dive bombing.
So far as I know it was mainly used in attacking the bomber streams.
I don’t know where the software writers of Microsoft’s FS3 got their performance figures from but they’re really easy to shoot down in a Vampire!
You should probably be able to get some info from the guys in US who have built three of them.

I thought that Hitler and the military were as wary as the British were about the merits of the “jet turbine”, believing in the well proven high performance prop engines against the new and untried technology. The BoB would certainly have been a different affair had the 262 been engaged.

262 & other German a/c after the war in CZ

I think the reason the 262 & others were not produced in any great numbers in CZ after the war was because of the take over by the Russians. The CZ AF was forced to take on early Yak jets and later Migs. The only 262’s built were those that used spare parts that were found in various locations.
This is also why they were allowed to sell off Spitfires & 109’s to Israel. I suppose the CZ AF was happy to get rid of the 109’s as it was a “mule” to fly.
The Russians wanted total control, ie no foreign military equipment.

The CZ AF Museum in Kbely,Prague is a great place to visit. Anyone who has a chance should see it. Also included in the amazing display is a single seat 262 and rwo kinds of Jumo powered 109’s, ie single seat and two seat. They also have a 2 seat 262 that is being restored.

There is the Stormbird project where volunteers build 5 Me-262s, they were in posession of 85% of the original design drawings.
http://www.stormbirds.com/project/index.html

here is airshow footage of one of the jets they produced
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8olc8KddOe4

Avia did produce low numbers of 262s as S-92s, surprised it wasn’t taken further really.
I think that post-war that the Me 262 could have come into its own.
Aerodynamically it was superior to the Meteor and Shooting Star (better than both even in standard wartime trim) which were both around into the early 1960s. The Cockpit layout, positioning and hood design were all good, and a couple of reliable engines would have sorted the powerplant problem.
It seems to me that for all the faults of those Jumos that it took a while for anyone else to produce a turbojet of similar proportions.
With the right powerplants it could have been a good fighter between the late war and the relable establishment of the swept wing jets in the late 1950s.
Not sure that engine positioning made them any more prone than say a Meteor or F-84?

Avia did build the 262 post war…it was the Avia S92

rgds baz

edit photo link…http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=10&ved=0CE8QFjAJ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.airplane-pictures.net%2Fimage7779.html&rct=j&q=avia+s92&ei=q_UMTKLNIaaG4gaJoK2uAQ&usg=AFQjCNEuFAXxjuix3d0d3m15FB8zmk-7jw

Thanks for the imput guy’s.

I know Avia was producing a version of the Bf. 109 (with a different engine) after the war and was just wondering if they could have adapted the same with the Me.262?

I just think underslung engines would have been a liability in dogfighting. Even with reliable engines in it, was it a pure interceptor of bombers or would it have held it’s own in a tangle with jets of the immediate post war era?

Voodoo

Here’s what Eric Brown (who flew it and all of it’s contemporaries) had to say about it “It was, in my view, the foremost warplane of it’s day; a hard hitter which outperformed anything that we had immediately available”

I once asked Eric Brown about his experiences flying the 262 and he said much the same to me. When I asked a supplementary about the aeroplane’s manoeuvrability he said it was very manoeuvrable. I then pushed my luck and asked him how its manoeuvrability compared with the 109 and he said it was very much better, but it was like trying to draw teeth getting him to say anything much!

Regards