Lancaster Upkeep bouncing bomb query

That postcard looks great! I’ll be having one 🙂

Have now completed all nineteen aircraft that took part in the raid!

Didn’t realise Rice wrecked two engines with his contact with the sea!

I don’t have a habit of advertising, however, it is nice to see an end result (well a prototype) will add crest, etc.

Have put it together as a postcard ( as all will become ) Mods feel free to remove if contravening but as with most stuff I do, ends up for various charities.

Baz

Thanks gate1, your knowledge and expertise is appreciated.

Gate 1`

have pm’d you

Baz

Just completed AJ-E Barlows machine with her mine.(in red oxide)

Ordered your book through Amazon.

just about to start AJ-Y.

Did they have time to put nose art on the ‘chastise’ Lancasters? (or even the standard Lancs they practiced in?) I have had my doubts reference the raid Lancs, I just cannot think they had the time to do so.

Baz

Some were partially converted to standard and used on later operations, and some were lost. All surviving at the end of the war were by then still in, or had been returned to Dambuster configuration, and were struck off charge and then scrapped.

Often wondered what happened to the surviving aircraft after the raid… Shall await the book!

Hi Baz, thanks for your kind comments, happy to help.

With regards Barlow’s mine, that is one of only a couple we can be certain carried a red oxide coloured mine as its referred to in the German report. The others would be a mixture of black or red oxide but how many is really anyones guess.

Its similar with Rice’s AJ – H and the damage. We know the tailwheel was badly damaged and the rear of the bomb bay but how extensive we cant be sure. I’d say a few dented under panels, but also the possibility of damaged caliper arms as they were ‘closed’ when the mine was torn free. Its case of artistic license to a large extent. I have some photos showing the damage to Martin’s ED909 ‘the morning after’, but I’ve never come across any others.

Re-ED825, the Wireless Op, Len Eaton later recalled having a piece of shrapnel land in his lap, which indicates slight damage to the fuselage side but again, how much? I cant be sure.

Regarding nose art, I have another photo of ED915 which has been published a couple of times wrongly as ED886. Its a process of elimination! I have a photo showing the nose art of another crew on their previous squadron but not certain if exactly the same design was applied to their Dams aircraft.

I’m generally happy to help Baz so feel free to PM me. I am in the process of writing a second book which will be a very comprehensive look at the raid, including all the men (with photos of every one) and a detailed look at the Lancaster’s and their modifications, later uses etc. Likely to run to two volumes it will be a comprehensive look at all aspects, so I will be keeping some stuff for that!

There is a god!

Gate 1

There is so much information in your post, thankyou!

I updated my original list so should be correct. (post 18)

I’m working on Barlows Lancaster right now and will include a red oxide mine when completed.

Had a play with AJ-H and twisted tailwheel up into tail. When I originally put the damage on, I didn’t want to go over the top without photos, a mistake made by some modellers of getting carried away! Is this how you envisaged the damage or even more?

I also updated ED825 sideview with AA damage from Flak train (port undercarriage nacelle, which puctured the mainwheel) was there any other damage recorded to this aircraft? (post 38)

Aaaaargh so many questions!

As 3 aircraft on ‘Chastise’ carried artwork and AJ-Q went u/s I guess only 2 flew the raid, do you know where I could find photos of this nose art? I found McCarthy’s website but there is no reference to ‘chastise’ Lancasters within it.

AJ-H below (updated)

more to follow

thanks in anticipation

Baz

Hello everyone. I am a member but very infrequent user of this forum, but was asked to contribute to this discussion by someone on another I use. I’ve been researching the dambuster aircraft for over 25 years now, and have contributed to quite a number of books as well as writing my own.

Regarding the colour of the bombs. Despite the note in John Sweetman’s book that inert were to be painted grey and live to be painted green, Ive never found any evidence this ever happened. Those delivered to Scampton were all painted in red oxide primer. I was the only person to ever interview Henry ‘Doc’ Watson, the Squadron Armament Officer who confirmed this, and also that he alone devised a series of numbers and letters which he chalked on the mines to determine live and inert. It is known that some were painted black to blend in with the lower fuselage by the groundcrews as they were loaded, but drawings of the captured example also refer to ‘dark red’ colour, indicating that at least that one, from Barlow’s aircraft, was still in its red primer, and show ‘X18’ stencilled on it which are the Watson markings (He couldnt recall exactly the codes later on sadly). I’ve no evidence that any mine was dropped in bare steel, or that any, other than the first live drop (by ‘Shorty’ Longbottom, when the mine was painted green) were in any other colours. Several years ago examples were brought up from the sea at Reculver and generally show traces of black, although later conservation and ‘restoration’ by the ‘Hammerite’ paint company saw them painted a garish green.

‘Spitfireman’, you added a very good drawing of Martin’s ED909 (AJ – P) and mentioned the lower ‘guns’. The lower gun position was just a single ball mounted Vickers ‘K’ gun fitted in an escape hatch, but it was only fitted to the test aircraft ED825, where it was found to be useless. However, all the Squadron aircraft had the mount fitted on the line and photos confirm this. ED825 was sent to Scampton on the day of the raid as a spare aircraft and in the event, used by Joe McCarthy coded AJ – T. Codes were painted on, but the spotlight altimeter was not fitted due to time constraints. I was part of the team who excavated ED825 over in France just over two years ago, and who identified the escape hatch, as shown on the documentary ‘The Last Dambuster’.

Of the list of ‘Dambuster’ aircraft suplied by ‘Spitfireman’, one is incorrect. McCarthy’s original aircraft was ED915 (AJ – Q), which went U/s on the night, causing the switch to ED825 (AJ – T). The Squadron operations book incorrectly lists the aircraft as ED923 but this Lancaster was never converted to Dambuster status and never issued to 617 Squadron. Off the top of my head, it went to 97 Squadron instead as a ‘standard’ Lancaster, but many books continue to repeat the incorrect code.

The other Lancaster noted, ED933 was coded AJ – X and used by the B Flight Commander Henry Maudslay until damaged, after which he took the last Lancaster to arrive on the Squadron (not including ED825) which was ED937 coded AJ – Z. The suffix ‘G’ was initially painted on to signify that the aircraft had special equipment fitted and thus needed a guard if they landed away from their home base. However, once allocated to 617 this suffix ‘G’ was quickly painted over.

‘Piston Power’ asked what happened to the bombs after the war. Many Upkeep mines remained and by the end of the war were found to be in a poor state with the contents starting to leak. There was a project – ‘Operation Wastage’ which saw the disposal of hundreds of thousands of tons of bombs in the sea, and part of this (Operation Guzzle) was the disposal of remaining Upkeep mines, which were generally dropped in the Irish sea, using three of the remaining ‘Dambuster’ Lancaster’s which had to be refurbished for the purpose.

As for the incident involving Martin’s aircraft, Upkeep was armed in two ways, by hand in the aircraft in flight, and after dropping in water when pressure activated the hydrostatic fuses. An Upkeep was loaded on his aircraft and accidentally dropped onto the tarmac. It hadnt been armed by hand (as it had not taken off) and of course there was no water so the weapon was quite safe.

‘FarlamAirframes’ refers to noseart on Dams Lancs. I was the poster of the note he refers to on the other forum.

To ‘Hindenburg’ – No plans or scale drawings of upkeep are known to exist in the UK, or if so they have not been released. The Germans made good drawings and we also shipped examples to Russia and the US although in the case of the latter I have yet to find any documents relating to it over there.

‘Spitfireman’ – the noseart ‘Uncle Chuck Chuck’ is incorrect for that aircraft, as it was applied to McCarthy’s later ‘standard’ Lancaster EE148 (KC – U). The drawing of the damaged ED936 (AJ – H) is very good, the first time Ive seen is depicted, but could be more so! The Upkeep also hit the tailwheel, sending it up into the tailplane spar and causing Rice to effectively land on his tailfins.

To ‘Dangerousdave’ – the photo of the ‘Scampton mine’ is not a scale model, but the internal cylinder of a Highball mine, the smaller version of upkeep to be dropped by Mosquito. Its a common error with such examples. This one came from Amsterdam where it had been displayed by the local branch of the RAF Association for many years and displayed incorrectly as a ‘scale example’.

‘Captainslow’ – You asked about Byers aircraft. I have photos taken in 1963 which reportedly show the excavation of this aircraft by the Dutch as they drained the land over there. I’ve not heard of the remains being conserved, retained or displayed anywhere however, and im not aware of any remains found in it.

In the post mention was made of Mark Postlethwaites book ‘Dambusters in Focus’, and also the Red Kite book which features the excavation of ED825. I helped on both of these, and have done on many others over the years. Last October, my own book for Osprey was published, entitled ‘No. 617 ‘Dambuster’ Sqn’, which contains details of all the items mentioned above, including a number of colour plates which have seemingly gone down very well with the modelling community! It may be of interest to some here, and is available on Amazon (amongst other places) or myself.

Sorry for the long winded reply, but I hope that clears up a few queries!

Excellent work spitfireman, much of the artwork of the Dambusters Lancasters has tended to concentrate on Gibson’s ED932 AJ-G, so it is welcome to see some of the lesser known crews’ aircraft featured.

On a footnote to this has anything recognisable from Byers’ ED934 AJ-K ever been trawled up or a search for the wreck taken place, although as the whole crew bar the rear gunner went down with the aircraft, so it would be a designated war grave. . .

Thanks guys

The Petwood mine looks as if it hit the beach with the damage sustained.

The Scampton scale model, was that an engineers model built at the time, or after the war?

Just completed AJ-H ED936. This aircraft flew too low and clipped the sea ripping off it’s mine and belly. The pilot P/O Rice limped back and landed the stricken bomber safely. The sideview shows her minutes after impact with the sea.

There’s also a scale model one at Scampton in case any of you haven’t been there.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/30806806@N06/3604048172/in/set-72157614120805435/

At the risk of sounding like a total anorak, here is a link to a picture I took at The Petwood Hotel in Woodhall Spa last year on the Dambuster’s anniversary. It is one of the few remaining prototypes of the Barnes Wallis bomb, as another pic on the stream shows.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/30806806@N06/3603536047/in/set-72157619304764423/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/30806806@N06/3603536059/in/set-72157619304764423/

There was a story that a Grand Slam, and a Tallboy, were set on their noses either side of the entrance to the Weybridge offices. One day a member of staff’s car was reversed into the Tallboy, knocking it askew. During the “realignment,” it was felt that it seemed rather heavy, for an empty shell, and it was discovered that it was still full of explosive;

In the 80’s it was discovered the 6in naval shell the Tesco by the RN dockyard in Pompey used as a doorstop… was live…

Sweetman describes the bomb as being 50 inches in diameter and 59 7/8 inches long. The original design had been 61 inches long but had to be reduced to fit the Lancaster bomb bay.

Hope these might be of some use and the one on the wooden beams was taken at Elvington a few years ago.The other photo was taken in the car park of the Petwood hotel made famous as it was used by 617 Sqn.,while they were using RAF Woodhall Spa.
It was described on a small plaque as being one of the only remaining prototypes of the Barnes Wallis bouncing bomb.:)

Had a play with McCarthy nose art and completed Gibsons Lancaster, also added damage to ED825/G after messing with a German flak train on the way to target.(port undercarriage nacelle)

Ian

Very interesting dig. Was you there?

will update side view with appropiate damage!

Baz