Sunderland GR5 – PP118

It seems the lifeboat crew at Calshot have snagged a propeller with their anchor. See report in the Southern Daily Echo

AllanK

Interesting item, Allan, thanks for posting.
Wonder if it’s from PP118?
Cheers
Richard

I have a note that PP118 is shown in a framed presentation cabinet at Shoreham Airport “From 201 Sqdn to the local RAF Assn.” following my visit there in May 2001 but I can’t remember whether it was a model or a photograph. If I go to the Shoreham Airshow next year I will try to get a photo of it and let you know.

Try sending a PM to willip26. He probably knows and may even have a photo of it!

avion ancien
Thanks for that
Cheers
Richard

It seems the lifeboat crew at Calshot have snagged a propeller with their anchor. See report in the Southern Daily Echo

AllanK

Hiya,

Yep so I see. It’s very interesting that two months after we visited them and spoke about the possible location of the wreck they happen to snag the wreck. They have known there was something there all along but haven’t been interested until now. So much for us doing a survey and investigating the wreck in peace – I assume there will be a number of people interested now and permission to dive the site will be harder to obtain. 🙁

Here’s my November article that mentions talking to the lifeboat people http://www.calshotdivers.com/index.php/dive-sites/34-wreck-dive/94–sunderland-flying-boat-at-calshot.html

Chat soon.

I took part in several survey dives on a Tudor shipwreck in the Cattewater off RAF Mountbatten. We had huge problems with mooring lines at the site. These lines also included chain which would swing with current changes and wreck our survey grid. The moorings were for RAF marine craft. I hope you have better luck with a lifeboat mooring !

The propeller dragged up by the Lifeboat is not from PP118.

It is from the Bristol Pegasus engine, not the Pratt and Whitney engine used on the MkV Sunderland.

Have a look at this thread where there are a few pics to show the differences: Link to Flying Boat Forum

As I said over there, all very curious. Now we need to work out what other aircraft might be down there.

AllanK

Hiya,

The propeller dragged up by the Lifeboat is not from PP118.

It is from the Bristol Pegasus engine, not the Pratt and Whitney engine used on the MkV Sunderland.

As I said over there, all very curious. Now we need to work out what other aircraft might be down there.

Hmm… actually it sounds like you need some divers 😉

To be honest, I’ve not got a clue about aircraft (well I recognise some of them), but so long as it’s underwater and needs finding I’m interested. 🙂

I’ve not been down to the lifeboat station to talk to the guys since they pulled up the prop. It’s always possible it’s not from PP118 and just happened to be on the seabed near by! I was actually skeptical that a chain would snag on the prop and allow it to be pulled up and suspected they were attempting to recover the object rather than just untangle the mooring (which makes sense, you wouldn’t want to snag it again next month).

I need to find out how close the prop was to the sonar object we had located.

I’m very interested in the possibility that it’s not a Sunderland prop and there is something else totally unknown down there! 🙂 But there appears to be nothing showing above the mud other than this one target.

I’ll keep you informed.

Chat soon.

It is likely to be from a Short Sunderland, but just not the aircraft that was thought which had different engines and propellers to this recovered example.

That prop is a de Havilland type as fitted to the Bristol Pegasus engines from the Mk I, II or III Sunderlands. The MkV (of which PP118 is an example) had Pratt and Whitney engines with different props. So that is not from PP118.

The significance is that there three preserved military Sunderlands around the world are all MkVs. So anything recovered from this wreck would be more historically significant. The Sunderland Trust at Pembroke Dock have found a Sunderland MkI, and are working towards recovery.

So, in short, if this prop came off the sonar target, then the aircraft is not PP118. And the mystery deepens.

AllanK

Hi folks,

Here’s the ITV Meridian interview with John Anderson, the son of Andy Anderson who features in the PP118 rescue.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10151792917671452

There are more photos and story details to be revealed 🙂

Chat soon.

Hi folks,

Blimey, 3 years! How time flies when you’re diving in the Solent 🙂

ITV Meridian should be running a 2-3 minutes story on PP118 this evening. We’re hoping to link it to our website later in the week if you can’t see it where you are. We’ve also published a few previously unseen photos and details of the 3 possible Sunderland aircraft we’ve been researching for the last few years!

I thought I’d let you guys know first as you were most helpful in the early stages and pointed me in a few directions (mainly out to sea! :rolleyes:)

Chat soon.
John Greenwood
www.CalshotDivers.com

Fascinating, looking forward to hearing more.

Hi again,

Just had to get back and let you know that the wreck we have located is pretty definately NOT PP118 – which is a real shame as we have tons of research on this aircraft which is really interesting.:o

Today I was given a photograph of PP118 aground in 2 or 3m of water close to the shore – and alight! This rather proves it’s not the wreck we have located offshore in 20m :confused:

The jury is still out as to which aircraft are where, but it seems likely that were looking at either PP118 or ML883.

Our second choice is ML883 which was in service with the RCAF 423 Sqn when it sank in Dec 1944 – which is probably right as that’s all we know about this aircraft 😮

Chat soon.

Something found…

Hi folks,

I thought I’d just pop back and give you an update on our aircraft search since we last spoke. Apart from lots more questions and a few meetings, the main event was the fact we carried out a reasonable sonar search of the site the other weekend and have definitely located a sizable target. It stands about 4-5m proud of the seabed and at least 13m long. This is probably the wreck that the RNLI propeller came from a couple of months back.

We have been given some details on another target site nearby, supposedly a Sunderland, but have yet to find any real proof.

The jury is still out as to which aircraft are where, but it seems likely that were looking at either PP118 or ML883.

There are some sonar results on http://www.calshotdivers.com/diving.html, but I’ll update this thread once we have any real photos! 🙂

Thanks again for your assistance.

Chat soon.

Hi folks,

Thank you all for the details and pointers in trying to track down the story of this aircraft – it’s amazing how a quick conversation in a pub leads to such an interesting hunt! 🙂

I am now in possession of the 235 Operations Record Book for February 1950. It does in fact confirm the dates and aircraft numbers, but only states rather matter of factly;

[INDENT]3.2.50 Aircraft “G” sank at its moorings at 10:30 hours.[/INDENT]

and

[INDENT]22.2.50 Aircraft “G” caught fire during salvage operations. It is thought the fire was caused by the flame floats, which were onboard the aircraft. The aircraft was almost totally destroyed.[/INDENT]

Further research has provided a 2004 Naval sonar survey, with a very fuzzy ‘flying boat’ only a few metres from where we would expect to find it! (Unfortunately due to copyright restrictions I am unable to publish these images :()

Additional public information on this aircraft will be added to the Calshot Sub-Aqua Club website as and when available. We are planning our own sonar survey and hopefully some dives on what the remain of the aircraft in 2010. I’ll keep you posted.

Thanks again for the key assistance provided by a number of the members of this forum.

Regards,
John Greenwood
BSAC Advanced Instructor

The entry for PP118 on p.179 in Chaz Bowyer’s book “The Short Sunderland” has:
PP118 To 288 Sqn 24.2.45; to 201 Sqn 17.6.45 ‘J’; to 57 MU 6.2.46; to 230 Sqn 23.9.48 ‘Z’; to 235 OCU 29.7.49 ‘TA-G’ and sank at moorings 3.2.50, salvaged but caught fire/burned out 23.2.50 and SOC/scrapped.

I have a note that PP118 is shown in a framed presentation cabinet at Shoreham Airport “From 201 Sqdn to the local RAF Assn.” following my visit there in May 2001 but I can’t remember whether it was a model or a photograph. If I go to the Shoreham Airshow next year I will try to get a photo of it and let you know.

Cheers
Richard

No.

The letters UE are the codes which identify the Squadron and the P is the individual identity of the aircraft within the Squadron. PP118 is the aircraft identity in the same way as a car or bus registration. Wherever the aircraft went it would retain the identity PP118 but the Squadron codes and individual aircraft letter would change.

hope this helps.

Regards,

kev35

Hi guys,

I’m totally trusting your info and photos, but just found this statement online (it was just a forum comment and not backed up with any facts or sources);

ML770 was a Sunderland Mk.III coded UE-P of No.228 Squadron. It was lost in a post-landing accident on the 21st of February 1945 after taxiing into a rock at the Scilly Isles.

From a non-aircraft guy, does the registration number change when an aircraft moves between squadrons? If PP118 was UE-P in 1946, would it have still been UE-P in 1950?

Chat soon.

Hi Alan,

Your name popped up somewhere else in relation to this enquiry – it seems I’ve got the two top Sunderland people on board 🙂

I’ve not got much information on PP118 or the attempted salvage. Chaz Bowyer’s book “The Short Sunderland” simply records “Salvaged, but caught fire/burnt out23 Feb 1950”.

Yep, I assumed it had sunk earlier in the month and been salvaged, but I’ve not seen that word on any of the documents. I couldn’t see the aircraft semi-submerged for 3 weeks! :rolleyes: Hopefully if the salvage failed (I understand the tail is missing), it wont be too far from the original mooring position….

I notice the lifeboat is almost directly above the wreck – I wonder if they’ve picked up the old flying boat mooring for the lifeboat.

I spoke to one of the lifeboat guys and he said they occasionally see something on the sonar while moored. I was also wondering if it was the same mooring buoy – that might explain why nobody has dived it in years (you can’t dive under lifeboats without special permission :cool:)

I’ll bookmark this thread and let you guys know if we actually find something. Were hoping to scan over the winter and possibly have a dip in 2010. A number of us have got really interested in this wreck! 🙂

Chat soon.

Hiya,

Did you spot my mag date error, now corrected?

No I didn’t notice it – that’s why I wrote to them at 3am enquiring about a 1948 reprint of the article 😮

I’ll let you off as you’ve been so kind and spot on with all the other information 🙂

Chat soon.