Spitfire Ground Crew

Anyone else find it quite sad that people can list every sortie a pilot flew, every aircraft they flew, intricacies of their uniform, what they ate and even what their dog was called, yet a simple question about the number and composition of groundcrew required to service an aircraft leads to replies littered with ‘I think’ and ‘probably’.

WWII groundcrew (or any groundcrew!) are a sadly neglected part of the war and the lack of information and decent books about them is a quite sad affair.

I think – as JDK and myself have alluded to previously…there are too many possible variable circumstances to give a really simple answer,any RAF Unit/Sqn would have its own local Regulations and Orders and the manner in which daily inspections/turn rounds etc were accomplished might vary considerably,and of course much would simply depend on how many skilled tradesmen were available,trade boundaries in the RAF have always been flexible and at a stroke of a pen you might find yourself ‘qualified’ to work outside your trade.
As Creaking Door posted earlier…as the war progressed some RAF units went to a more centralised system,but I would imagine there was much local variation even then.
In my ‘career’ as a Rigger…I have always been impressed by the variation in local working practices/procedures etc at the various units/stations where I have worked.

Anyone else find it quite sad that people can list every sortie a pilot flew, every aircraft they flew, intricacies of their uniform, what they ate and even what their dog was called, yet a simple question about the number and composition of groundcrew required to service an aircraft leads to replies littered with ‘I think’ and ‘probably’.

WWII groundcrew (or any groundcrew!) are a sadly neglected part of the war and the lack of information and decent books about them is a quite sad affair.

It is true it seems to be a little studied subject from what I gather as with most thing British including the language there are no hard and fast rules. I am hoping the DVD suggested will fill in all the gaps.

Anyone else find it quite sad that people can list every sortie a pilot flew, every aircraft they flew, intricacies of their uniform, what they ate and even what their dog was called, yet a simple question about the number and composition of groundcrew required to service an aircraft leads to replies littered with ‘I think’ and ‘probably’.

WWII groundcrew (or any groundcrew!) are a sadly neglected part of the war and the lack of information and decent books about them is a quite sad affair.

Well the Spitfire is already sooty and Oily from burning av gas and the usual small oil leaks’ not to mention an annoying and seemingly incurable hydraulic leak. Won’t be long until the crew look the same :diablo:

Ground crew

I trust the said Spitfire will be suitably scruffy and the cowlings covered in soot behind the exhausts with the odd drops of oil here and there also behind the gun ports!Uniforms would have been non too clean either and as for overalls hope you get authentical oily sweaty ones!

The ground crew always claimed the aircraft was theirs and they allowed the pilot to borrow it, the pilots thought it was theirs and allowed the erks to work on it. As one signs for all their equipment in the forces be it personal items like uniform or pooled stores like tool kits, vehicles ,aircraft and ships the pilot’s view is actually correct.

Not sure about the logic there Mike 😀
We might sign the maintenance documentation 30/40 times against the Driver’s 1 signature before and after flight 😉
So I reckon they still belong to us 😀

That seems to have been the case at the beginning of the war; that each aircraft and pilot was allocates two or three ground-crew who looked after ‘their’ aircraft…

…remember the pilots just borrowed the aircraft…..and had to sign for them!

Later, due to the pressures of war, I think the RAF changed to a ‘pooled’ maintenance routine where any aircraft could have been worked on by any ground-crew member.

Although perfectly reasonable from a theoretical point-of-view I remember reading about squadrons chasing V1 flying-bombs that one squadron gained many more kills than any other squadron and that a well-known pilot (forget who) from that squadron put it down to the fact that his squadron was the last in Fighter Command to still be operating the old maintenance routine, and that that gave the pilots and ground-crew much better motivation and morale.

The ground crew always claimed the aircraft was theirs and they allowed the pilot to borrow it, the pilots thought it was theirs and allowed the erks to work on it. As one signs for all their equipment in the forces be it personal items like uniform or pooled stores like tool kits, vehicles ,aircraft and ships the pilot’s view is actually correct.

The relevant rank badges are on this link but NOT to include (3)Senior Aircraftman and (8) WO 2 …as they were not used during WW2

http://www.rafweb.org/Ranks6.htm

rgds baz

ps you will see why the WO rank badges were sometimes called ‘Tate and Lyles’ 😀

Thankyou Baz

Found it bought it should answer allot of questions just need a crew now.:)

Some while back I purchased a DVD of a WW2 vintage info film entitled ‘ Daily Inspection of a Spitfire’, this shows in great detail the daily routine of inspection, refueling, rearming etc. Good deatail of the chaps doing there thing, uniforms etc.

I got mine from a well known internet auction site…search for ‘Spitfire Inspection DVD’ and you should find it,… from a seller in Canada!

Cheers, Chumpy.

Cheers Chumpy

I’ll have a look for that.

Some while back I purchased a DVD of a WW2 vintage info film entitled ‘ Daily Inspection of a Spitfire’, this shows in great detail the daily routine of inspection, refueling, rearming etc. Good deatail of the chaps doing there thing, uniforms etc.

I got mine from a well known internet auction site…search for ‘Spitfire Inspection DVD’ and you should find it,… from a seller in Canada!

Cheers, Chumpy.

The relevant rank badges are on this link but NOT to include (3)Senior Aircraftman and (8) WO 2 …as they were not used during WW2

http://www.rafweb.org/Ranks6.htm

rgds baz

ps you will see why the WO rank badges were sometimes called ‘Tate and Lyles’ 😀

This is all good stuff, in the B of B film you see a crew chief organising the burning of the lame ducks. Would this chap be in charge of all the ground crew for the whole Squadron? What would be his role and what rank and insignia would he likely to be/wear? Who would he answer to the Squadron Ldr or flt commanders?

If he was referred to as ‘chiefy’ he would have been a flight sergeant (3 stripes with a crown above).
As Mark V said he would answer to the Sqn Eng Officer,but I believe that the Sqdn Eng O could either have been a Commissioned Officer or quite likely a Warrant Officer (Tate and Lyle badges on lower sleeve :D)
Depending on how a particular unit was organised the ‘chiefy’ would also work very closely with the sqn ldr/flt cdrs.

rgds baz

Who would he answer to the Squadron Ldr or flt commanders?

As a Senior NCO he would answer to the Squadron’s Engineering Officer.

The fitter was the engine specialist,so his/her primary responsibility would be maintaining the Engine/Prop/Engine Controls.
The Rigger was/is the Airframe Specialist,his/her primary responsibility would be the Airframe structure,flying controls,hydraulic/pneumatic systems,landing gear,transparencies.
But in reality the 2 tradesmen would have helped each other out as required (as long as they ‘got on’ with each other).

I would imagine on most flying units trade demarcation got a little hazy at times especially for the more mundane tasks .
So a minimum turn round team might be 1 Fitter/1 Rigger/2 Armourers (if rearming) and maybe a ‘Fairy’ 😀 if there was a radio problem.

When I joined my first sqn on graduation from Halton in 1972 (Rigger) we had fairly recently taken over responsibility for Oxygen systems from the ‘Fairies’ and indeed our Inst (gen) mechanic still topped up the a/c for us every morning,so I am speculating that during WW2 the fairies were responsible for oxygen bottles etc…anybody confirm ??

rgds baz

This is all good stuff, in the B of B film you see a crew chief organising the burning of the lame ducks. Would this chap be in charge of all the ground crew for the whole Squadron? What would be his role and what rank and insignia would he likely to be/wear? Who would he answer to the Squadron Ldr or flt commanders?

David Layne,

Great poem, one I’ll be sharing with my girls.

Thanks,
Jane

The fitter was the engine specialist,so his/her primary responsibility would be maintaining the Engine/Prop/Engine Controls.
The Rigger was/is the Airframe Specialist,his/her primary responsibility would be the Airframe structure,flying controls,hydraulic/pneumatic systems,landing gear,transparencies.
But in reality the 2 tradesmen would have helped each other out as required (as long as they ‘got on’ with each other).

I would imagine on most flying units trade demarcation got a little hazy at times especially for the more mundane tasks .
So a minimum turn round team might be 1 Fitter/1 Rigger/2 Armourers (if rearming) and maybe a ‘Fairy’ 😀 if there was a radio problem.

When I joined my first sqn on graduation from Halton in 1972 (Rigger) we had fairly recently taken over responsibility for Oxygen systems from the ‘Fairies’ and indeed our Inst (gen) mechanic still topped up the a/c for us every morning,so I am speculating that during WW2 the fairies were responsible for oxygen bottles etc…anybody confirm ??

rgds baz

I thought this might be a good place to post this as it is a poem about a ground crew member.

Ain’t feelin’ quite so good today, I’m even off me beer!
Altho’ they’ve given me 10 days leave, I still feel kinda queer,
I’ve had a nasty shock you see, I’ve lost my biggest chum,
It happened just a week ago, and better men don’t come.

My pal’s a famous fighter ace, DSO and DFC,
His score of Jerry buses had just reached twenty-three.
Squadron Leader Brand, the finest bloke I’ve met,
Him and me was really pals, that makes you smile I bet.

Him a proper English gent, public school and Oxford Blue
And me a common Cockney bloke, just an AC2.
A Spitfire fighter pilot and his rigger, that was us
The bloke who did the scrapping and me what did his bus.

A “fighting team” he said we were, altho’ he’d got three rings.
“Jimmy you’re all right,” he said, altho’ he’d got the wings.
“You’re the bloke that I depend on when I’m up there in a fight,
I can’t shoot ’em down unless you fix my Spitfire right.”

He was always kind and thoughtful, when my missus had a kid,
He sent a wire, a bunch of flowers, as well as fifteen quid.
I told him I was grateful, said I’d make it up to him,
He gave a crooked smile and said, “You owe me nothing Jim.”

I’ve got a pair of silver Wings, two medals on my chest,
My name’s been in the papers, there’s promotion and the rest.
I’ve got twenty-three swastikas painted on my petrol tank
For all these things it’s blokes like you I’ve really got to thank.”

The day he’d been to see the King to get his DSO
They ‘ad a lovely party, all ‘is friends and the CO.
But ‘e got away for just a while to buy us drinks all round,
“You can’t win medals in the sky with dud blokes on the ground.”

“Killer” Brand they called him, the pilot of no Wing,
What a name to give a bloke who’d never harm a thing,
Except when he was chasing Huns; Blimey then he’d fight!
You see he’d lost his sister when Jerry came one night.

The girls were crazy after him, they chased him near and far,
Made his life a misery, just like a movie star.
Wouldn’t have no truck with ’em, perhaps they thought him dumb,
If they did, he didn’t worry, his best girl was his Mum.

A week ago last Monday, I won’t forget that day,
It was cold wet and dreary, all the sky was grey.
They took off them twelve Spitfires on an early morning sweep,
Just like a hundred other days, I waved and said “God keep”.

I couldn’t seem to settle down the time they was away,
I seemed to have a feeling this was going to be his day.
I waited on the airfield ’til I sighted them – and then,
One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten.

I quickly checked them over, but his crate it wasn’t there.
I asked the other pilots if they’d seen him bail and where?
They’d seen him crashing down in flames, “Tony’s gone we fear.”
I ain’t feeling quite so good today – I’m even off me beer!

I believe they would serve anybody.

Interesting stuff thanks so what would the fitter and rigger be responsible for? As for re-arming and re-fueling how many ground crew would be involved in those operation, I guess its a bit like how long is a piece of string so ball park figure would be good. How was the ammo delivered? was there a specific vehicle or just boxes loaded on any old truck?
Naffi Van sounds like a good plan, did they serve spirits??:diablo: