The Tale of Four Spitfires

It is unfortunate this has taken so long to resolve, as I am aware that it had been hoped to have the items released from the MOD/RAF in time for February this year and the 70th anniversary of John’s loss. A great shame that it was not possible and one hopes that the MOD get their finger out soon – although I am not holding my breath!

Similarly, we were hoping to get some other artifacts from a recovery last May on display at Lashenden for 18 August last year. Almost one year on and we are still waiting for the MOD to “release” these items (or not!) post recovery.

Maybe the MOD would act a little faster if they were billed for storage from May to present day for the artefacts mentioned in my second paragraph above.

The best place to display the remains of the arcraft is at the Lashenden Air Warfare Museum at Headcorn Kent. We already have the Rolls Royce Merlin XII & the prop boss on display as part of the Andrew Cresswell collection along with a fitting tribute to John Gilders.

We would be only to pleased to give the remains an appropriate home.

www.lashendenairwarfaremuseum.co.uk

Finding Sergeant Gilders – Patrol Failed to Return – Spitfire P7816

“Sergeant Gilders was killed on February 21st 1941 when his Spitfire P7816 dived into soft ground near the Great Stour River at Chilham, Kent and buried itself. In April 1994 the site was investigated with a new owners permission and Gilders’ body was found. The recovery operation (by Mark Kirby) was done with the co-operation of the pilot’s family. On May 12th 1995 Gilders was buried in Brookwood Military Cemetery, with full military honours.”
http://www.battleofbritain.tv/TheFew.html

Thank you all for your comments and advice. This response is intended as an update to these discussions albeit some time later.

Every effort has been taken to try to move the remains of Sergeant Gilders Spitfire (P7816) to a public display.

AeroHistorian, thank you so much for your recommendation, and we all agreed that Lashenden Air Warfare Museum would be the most suitable choice. This is particularly inspired by the generous acts of archaeologist, Andy Cresswell’s family in donating his own collection to Lashenden, after his loss. For these parts to be brought together with the parts currently on display at Lashenden, including the merlin engine, will also be a fitting tribute to John.

Sign-off and agreement was required from various parties, firstly the family, and secondly the MOD, and those in charge of the current, private collection. I am grateful to everyone involved in this process, but many reading this message would appreciate such things take a long time, and the process continues to this day. I hope the museum still has space for this extended collection, and that these plans can come together one day in the near future.

Thank you also Tangmere1940 for all your help and advice (including privately).
“Finding The Few” by Andy Saunders, and “Missing in Action: Resting in Peace” by Dilip Sarkar remain the best publications covering the story of Sergeant John Stanley Gilders, and Aviation Archaeology in General.

Here’s hoping that all the discussions and correspondence to date will finally lead to a public display of John’s Spitfire.

Not only was John Gilders one of the missing for so long, he was also one of the forgotten Aces. In the most recent update of ‘Aces High’, John Gilders was added to the illustrious list of Battle of Britain Aces. This was following the recognition of an HE111 ‘forced down’ on 15th September:

“Christopher Shores adds that claim to his victories in Aces High Volume 2 page 94 and states that the revised total was 5 plus 1 shared and 3 damaged. JS Gilders … is definitely recognised as an ace.”
message from an Historian friend

In the meantime, whatever readers’ opinion on this posthumous recognition of Sgt J S Gilders, please spare him a thought.

I share below a link to a short film I made about the story of John’s recovery. :

http://www.battleofbritain.tv/Archaeology.html

Thanks again, and putting my hopes in success with the public display of John’s Spitfire at Lashenden Airwarfare museum.

Hendon would seem to be the right place, alongside the Hurricane. The IWM made of a good display of the much more limited remains of Holmes Hurricane from Buckingham Palace road.

Moggy, this is worthy subject by itself and would be worth a seperate subject?

Welcome to the forum.

I knew none of this dreadful affair until reading Andy’s ‘Finding the Few’ It was one of the stories in it that made me really angry.

As for displaying the salvaged aircraft I am always impressed by the compact tableau at Hendon with the remains of the crashed Hurricane. I stare at the rudder pedals and think instantly of the feet braced against them as the aircraft fell. It is very, very powerful.

The question would be ‘Where best?’

It might be worth approaching the Pantons to see if East Kirkby was possible. Though that is very much ‘Bomber Command’ themed.

IWM North badly needs some content

National arboretum / memorial?

Moggy

The best place to display the remains of the arcraft is at the Lashenden Air Warfare Museum at Headcorn Kent. We already have the Rolls Royce Merlin XII & the prop boss on display as part of the Andrew Cresswell collection along with a fitting tribute to John Gilders.

We would be only to pleased to give the remains an appropriate home.

www.lashendenairwarfaremuseum.co.uk

I, like Moggy, personally think a BoBM Maffett Hurri type display would be wonderful. The ‘Nimrod’ music and the sad remains and the scroll of honour are unbelievably moving….brings a tear to my eye everytime I see it.

Your Great Uncle was a true role model and hero.

Excellent website there, Aerohistorian, the slide show is particularly informative. Interested to know what you have from the P61 and Hawk75, having redug both of these. Will certainly be paying you a visit.

The best place to display the remains of the arcraft is at the Lashenden Air Warfare Museum at Headcorn Kent. We already have the Rolls Royce Merlin XII & the prop boss on display as part of the Andrew Cresswell collection along with a fitting tribute to John Gilders.

We would be only to pleased to give the remains an appropriate home.

www.lashendenairwarfaremuseum.co.uk

John’s my Great Uncle, and until the archaeologists found him, there was uncertainty in the family what had happened to him. RAF and MOD confusion led his Father to believe any number of outcomes could have been possible – including a suggestion that he parachuted out and was taken prisoner, or lost at sea!

Welcome to the forum.

I knew none of this dreadful affair until reading Andy’s ‘Finding the Few’ It was one of the stories in it that made me really angry.

As for displaying the salvaged aircraft I am always impressed by the compact tableau at Hendon with the remains of the crashed Hurricane. I stare at the rudder pedals and think instantly of the feet braced against them as the aircraft fell. It is very, very powerful.

The question would be ‘Where best?’

It might be worth approaching the Pantons to see if East Kirkby was possible. Though that is very much ‘Bomber Command’ themed.

IWM North badly needs some content

National arboretum / memorial?

Moggy

Last of the Few P7816

Interesting to note that the remains of Sgt John Gilders Spitfire are stored here, although I believe I am correct in saying that the engine (originally held by the late Andy Cresswell) is displayed at Headcorn as I am sure Aerohistorian may be able to confirm. Other parts are displayed at the Purfleet Heritage Centre. The items from this aircraft at Stafford were impounded by the MOD.

It would be great to see the rest of this plane on display in one of the museums. As I write this John Gilders, excavated in 1994, was the last Battle of Britain pilot to be recovered, although more BOB recoveries are still ongoing.

For those interested, I really recommend Andy Saunder’s book ‘Finding the Few’, which examines the struggles behind each of the main Battle of Britain digs which took place up until the 90’s.

John’s my Great Uncle, and until the archaeologists found him, there was uncertainty in the family what had happened to him. RAF and MOD confusion led his Father to believe any number of outcomes could have been possible – including a suggestion that he parachuted out and was taken prisoner, or lost at sea!

When the archaeologist Mark Kirby first contacted my family, to say they had found John, it was the end of a 50 year mystery. His brother and sister, and former fiancee were still alive. For all they knew, John was still wondering the streets with amnesia, so this looked like the last page to the book of questions that had been left unanswered.

A year of anxiety for family and archaeologists ensued, including Mr Kirby’s arrest (and subsequent full exoneration since he was acting with the family’s permission). Many months later John was finally laid to rest, with full military honours. His brother and fiancee were able to say their final farewell and achieve closure. It remained too hard for his sister to attend.

The archaeology team, entirely self-funded put years of work into the research behind this recovery, and so it was with great regret when I found the majority of the plane was still ‘impounded’.

Having finally negotiated with the Ministry of Defence, the family has taken steps to ensure P7816 will soon be moving to a museum. Work is currently underway to secure a grant for an appropriate display of the remains of John’s plane.

The last of The Few to be recovered… ( so far…. please see Andy’s book, and catch the BBC’s ‘Dig 1940’ next year to see what happens next for the remaining missing few)

In the meantime please contact me if you have any suggestions for how best the remains of John’s plane could be displayed.

Many thanks,

Bob TV
[email]info@battleofbritain.tv[/email]

http://www.battleofbritain.tv/press.html