Bomber command losses

…seems pretty sure of his facts so i think we have a match.

Possibly, probably even, but a note of caution:

All I did was look for a Lancaster lost on the night of 30/31 March 1944 near the locations you posted…..and I failed to find any…

…but by progressively referencing the crash location to the next biggest/nearest place R5546 was the first Lancaster to ‘fit’ the date, time and other facts that were presented.

Of course it doesn’t follow that the recovered parts are definitely from this Lancaster (or even a Lancaster at all) but they certainly could be. Thousands of RAF bombers were lost over Germany during the war and I’ve made no attempt to eliminate any bomber that crashed close to this location a week, a month or a year before or after this date.

I don’t know anything about ‘Luftwaffen Revue’ but if it was a wartime publication its primary purpose was surely one of propaganda (as would be the case for a similar RAF publication). While it will have some facts in it, everything in it may not be fact.

The time given by the witness is almost certainly a local time but I have to say I’m always amazed how witnesses remember dates from so long ago, especially when the witness wasn’t seriously or directly affected by an event…

…I have trouble remembering the date of something that happened last year…..not sixty-five years ago! 😀

Some of the crew were taken prisoner so that seems to fit; from the Lost Bombers website:

When lost, this aircraft had a total of 502 hours. Airborne 2213 30Mar44 from Skellingthorpe. While on the outbound leg was hit either by Flak or cannon-fire from a night-fighter. Within seconds of being hit, the Lancaster exploded over Waldbreitbach, a village in picturesque countryside, 12 km E of Sinzig.

Those killed are buried in Rheinberg War Cemetery.

F/S D.G.Gray POW
Sgt J.Grant KIA
F/S A.D.Campbell RAAF POW
F/S G.Wallis RAAF POW
Sgt H.A.Wright KIA
Sgt F.B.Patey KIA
Sgt D.Maughan KIA

Thats great info just had this email back from Germany seems pretty sure of his facts so i think we have a match,

“Time was exactly 0.33 in the night. I have other wrekage from a lot of places where aircraft came down. I know a lot of places with sometimes very curios storrys,it was also printed in a famous paper here, the “Luftwaffen Revue”…so you can see – it´s official & legal.
I ofen speak with old people who try to remember whats happend in these nights an the following days….very interersting stuff.
I know round about 4 places where Lancasters came down. From some places I´ve photos out of the archive….so you can sometimes see wich type of bomber it was or read it in other documents out of this time”

He is a local who has come across the crash site. He is not an eye witness but knows an old man who saw it and said the crew were taken as POW, suggests a belly landing? possibly.

Some of the crew were taken prisoner so that seems to fit; from the Lost Bombers website:

When lost, this aircraft had a total of 502 hours. Airborne 2213 30Mar44 from Skellingthorpe. While on the outbound leg was hit either by Flak or cannon-fire from a night-fighter. Within seconds of being hit, the Lancaster exploded over Waldbreitbach, a village in picturesque countryside, 12 km E of Sinzig.

Those killed are buried in Rheinberg War Cemetery.

F/S D.G.Gray POW
Sgt J.Grant KIA
F/S A.D.Campbell RAAF POW
F/S G.Wallis RAAF POW
Sgt H.A.Wright KIA
Sgt F.B.Patey KIA
Sgt D.Maughan KIA

Great advice, Thanks Kev35

Is it certain these are Lancaster bits?

Take-off time was 22:13 hours from Skellingthrope (if it was R5546) and aircraft was shot-down on the long, slow (against headwind), outboard route, so it should be relatively simple to work out if the time is correct.

Where does the crash-time come from; a local witness, or a Luftwaffe combat report?

He is a local who has come across the crash site. He says the aircraft was cleered at the time it crashed. He is not an eye witness but knows an old man who saw it and said the crew were taken as POW, suggests a belly landing? possibly. Although if this was the case I would not expect instruments strewn around the crash site.
He seems pretty specific about the time and aircraft type, I will email him and ask what makes him so certain and is it local time.

efiste2.

Better than that, your Father can apply for your Great uncle’s Service Record which would list postings etc., and therefore tell you the Squadron or Squadron’s he served with. from that point it would be a matter of checking the Squadron Operational Record Books to give you every operation he took part in. A lengthy process but a very rewarding one.

This page will help you a lot and offers you the opportunity to download a kinship form to begin the process.

http://www.veterans-uk.info/service_records/raf.html

Also, simply posting his name here may give someone enough to start the ball rolling.

Regards

kev35

Sorry to divert this thread, is there a book or even better a website, that would tell me any missions my late great uncle (as in my fathers uncle) flew on, The only info i have is his name, unfortunately I only found out that he was part of a lancaster crew earlier this year, and there is nobody left alive to ask about his war record. although he can be seen in a colour film returning from a raid that was screened on the BBC a couple of years ago, and is now released on DVD. On the cover it says the film is about “No.1 group,RAF,1943..” can any info be captured from this?

I have been emailed by a chap from the area trying to trace which aircraft he has found, here are a couple of bits he has recovered I guess on the surface. The oxy gauge is obvious the other piece is AM 11/A which is something to do with the bomb gear.

Is it certain these are Lancaster bits?

Take-off time was 22:13 hours from Skellingthrope (if it was R5546) and aircraft was shot-down on the long, slow (against headwind), outboard route, so it should be relatively simple to work out if the time is correct.

Where does the crash-time come from; a local witness, or a Luftwaffe combat report?

Sorry

Was not aware that this was specialist thread.

On the timing I’m wondering if that might be at middle – europe time rather than GMT, hence not appearing in the references?

I had a quick look for you last night (you are lucky I happened to have the 1944 BCL on my desk).

I couldn’t find the place names that you mentioned relating to any Lancaster loss (but it is possible I could have missed them) and the losses are not listed by time-of-loss in the BCL books. Also, as has been said, there are sadly a lot of Lancasters to check for that night.

One problem may be that the locations that you have given are tiny, little more than a few farm buildings or a hamlet from the look of them, and this is sixty-five years of building later.

It is very probable that the crash location of the Lancaster in question is listed in BCL in a different way, such as ‘3km West of Waldbreitbach’ for example. The Google-Maps page is linked below:

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&q=Girgenrath+Bad+H%C3%B6nningen,+Neuwied,+Rhineland-Palatinate,+Germany&sll=51.169011,6.957092&sspn=0.795649,2.801514&ie=UTF8&cd=1&geocode=FZBVAwMdsndwAA&split=0&ll=50.551835,7.378821&spn=0.012598,0.043774&t=h&z=15

Presumably you are trying to trace this aircraft from a crash location witness?

Thanks All

Yes I have been emailed by a chap from the area trying to trace which aircraft he has found, here are a couple of bits he has recovered I guess on the surface. The oxy gauge is obvious the other piece is AM 11/A which is something to do with the bomb gear.

Could it be Lancaster R5546?

I had a quick look for you last night (you are lucky I happened to have the 1944 BCL on my desk).

I couldn’t find the place names that you mentioned relating to any Lancaster loss (but it is possible I could have missed them) and the losses are not listed by time-of-loss in the BCL books. Also, as has been said, there are sadly a lot of Lancasters to check for that night.

One problem may be that the locations that you have given are tiny, little more than a few farm buildings or a hamlet from the look of them, and this is sixty-five years of building later.

It is very probable that the crash location of the Lancaster in question is listed in BCL in a different way, such as ‘3km West of Waldbreitbach’ for example. The Google-Maps page is linked below:

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&q=Girgenrath+Bad+H%C3%B6nningen,+Neuwied,+Rhineland-Palatinate,+Germany&sll=51.169011,6.957092&sspn=0.795649,2.801514&ie=UTF8&cd=1&geocode=FZBVAwMdsndwAA&split=0&ll=50.551835,7.378821&spn=0.012598,0.043774&t=h&z=15

Presumably you are trying to trace this aircraft from a crash location witness?

Hi Graham

That would have been the Nuremberg Raid, 106 bombers lost that night I believe.

Look it up yourself online

http://www.lostbombers.co.uk/