Req: Info about RAF Graves in San Marcos, Texas

Yes. That is the normal use of the term in training. The other is reported as “accident rate”.

You do realise in the context of the report, “attrition” refers to student “wash out” and not fatalities?

Interesting report…clears up some of the Super Cub use as ab inito trainers.
But it (page 21) doesn’t mention San Marcos as a training base in that time frame…or why RAF pupils would be there.

Source on USAF 1950s training policy and aircraft:

Ann Krueger Hussey, Air Force Flight Screening: Evolutionary Changes, 1917-2003, Office of History and Research, Headquarters Air Education and Training Command, Randolph AFB, Texas, December 2004. Attrition rates table on p. 6.
Available on the Web: http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a476370.pdf

In the RAF you do your basics fixed wing before being streamed to Fighters, Transport or Helicopters….. You need to initially assess what a pilot is best suited to, not all pilots are suitable for fast jet, and it without a fixed wing phase you cannot do that, hence the Tutor phase.

You can find more here

http://www.raf.mod.uk/currentoperations/training.cfm

In the RAF you do your basics fixed wing before being streamed to Fighters, Transport or Helicopters….. You need to initially assess what a pilot is best suited to, not all pilots are suitable for fast jet, and it without a fixed wing phase you cannot do that, hence the Tutor phase.

You can find more here

http://www.raf.mod.uk/currentoperations/training.cfm

As for why a helicopter pilot-trainee would be flying a T-6 Texan prop trainer… normal practice was to fully qualify as a pilot on prop-driven fixed-wing aircraft first, and then begin training on helicopters.

For USAF pilots yes, not so for US Army helicopter pilots.
How is it done in the RAF and UK Army?

I believe at that time the USAF usually used T-6s as trainers ab initio. Which contributed to attrition rates.

What information do you have on postwar T-6 attrition rates?

The T-28 was the primary (ab inito) USAF trainer at the time, they were nearly all delivered by 1953.
But… USAF usually studentsalso/often had some ab initio training in Piper Super Cubs at contract flying schools.
However, the Trojan was found lacking (and perhaps cost was a factor) so in 1954 students got 30 hours in the Beech T-34, then progressing onto the T-28. By then the advanced trainer would have been the T-33.

What is also odd is the fact they were flying “D” model T-6s.
By 1953, the “G”s were the primary variant used.

Has anyone researched why RAF pilots were in the USA that late?
The UK had its own helicopter schools.
Perhaps it was a fixed wing school in the US due to Korean War expansion?

As for why a helicopter pilot-trainee would be flying a T-6 Texan prop trainer… normal practice was to fully qualify as a pilot on prop-driven fixed-wing aircraft first, and then begin training on helicopters.

For USAF pilots yes, not so for US Army helicopter pilots.
How is it done in the RAF and UK Army?

I believe at that time the USAF usually used T-6s as trainers ab initio. Which contributed to attrition rates.

What information do you have on postwar T-6 attrition rates?

The T-28 was the primary (ab inito) USAF trainer at the time, they were nearly all delivered by 1953.
But… USAF usually studentsalso/often had some ab initio training in Piper Super Cubs at contract flying schools.
However, the Trojan was found lacking (and perhaps cost was a factor) so in 1954 students got 30 hours in the Beech T-34, then progressing onto the T-28. By then the advanced trainer would have been the T-33.

What is also odd is the fact they were flying “D” model T-6s.
By 1953, the “G”s were the primary variant used.

Has anyone researched why RAF pilots were in the USA that late?
The UK had its own helicopter schools.
Perhaps it was a fixed wing school in the US due to Korean War expansion?

I believe at that time the USAF usually used T-6s as trainers ab initio. Which contributed to attrition rates.

I believe at that time the USAF usually used T-6s as trainers ab initio. Which contributed to attrition rates.

As for why a helicopter pilot-trainee would be flying a T-6 Texan prop trainer… normal practice was to fully qualify as a pilot on prop-driven fixed-wing aircraft first, and then begin training on helicopters.

As for why a helicopter pilot-trainee would be flying a T-6 Texan prop trainer… normal practice was to fully qualify as a pilot on prop-driven fixed-wing aircraft first, and then begin training on helicopters.

I would be really interested if anyone else has any more info about the nature of the crash and why he was over in the USA.I look forward to any more posts that are forthcoming. Thanks, PETER LEES

Hello Peter, I stumbled across this thread (this forum actually) because I was looking for details of a distant relative by the name of Charlie McElroy from Clarkston, killed on service with the RAF around this timeframe. I have sent you a personal message and email with a bit more info. This thread is old and you may no longer be following it, so I hope the PM or email reaches you. Kind regards.

I would be really interested if anyone else has any more info about the nature of the crash and why he was over in the USA.I look forward to any more posts that are forthcoming. Thanks, PETER LEES

Hello Peter, I stumbled across this thread (this forum actually) because I was looking for details of a distant relative by the name of Charlie McElroy from Clarkston, killed on service with the RAF around this timeframe. I have sent you a personal message and email with a bit more info. This thread is old and you may no longer be following it, so I hope the PM or email reaches you. Kind regards.

Repatriation Policy

I understand the foreign burial policy during the war, but I’m very surprised it was continued into the 50s.

The UK policy didn’t change until the 60’s (1967 for deaths outside Europe)and in practice it was only after the Falklands that repatriations were carried out in large numbers

Scott

Very interested to see your pictures. There is a very worthy project in the UK called The War Graves Photographic Project, which has the aim of “to photograph every war grave, individual memorial, MoD grave, and family memorial of serving military personnel from WWI to the present day and make these available within a searchable database. ” They are very approachable, and I’m sure they would be interested in your photos. A good chap to email is their co-ordinator, Steve Rogers – you can find him at

[email]steve@twgpp.org[/email]

Regards, Sargs

British repatriation policy used to always be ‘bury them where they fell’

Indeed. The practicalities of shipping bodies home in the age of sail and extensive foreign adventures meant this was inevitable.

It continued in WW1 when it might have been possible to repatriate largely for reasons of home front morale.

“If I should die, think only this of me that there shall be some corner of a foreign field that is forever England.” (Rupert Brooke)

Which is why there is a memorial in almost every English village to give a focal point for mourning because of the lack of an actual grave.

It is the Americans who seem to have started the current practice of repatriation for which I can see a lot of justification, particularly in countries where the graves most probably won’t be respected in years to come (Afghanistan?), though I am less sure about digging warriors up from the manicured lawns of Madingley and the company of their comrades to hoik them off home after so many years.

Moggy

Charles McElroy

Hi there, Firstly let me introduce myself. My name is Peter Lees and i live near Eaglesham, on the south side of Glasgow.I was absolutely astonished to see the pictures of the gravestones in the cemetry in San Marcos.
Pilot Officer Charles McElroy was my Uncle. He was my Mother’s younger Brother and i grew up knowing that “Uncle Charlie” was killed in a plane crash in America. I was born in 1962 so sadly i never met him, but my Mum would talk about him from time to time, and when i was about 10 years old she showed me a photo album full of pictures of his funeral, that had been sent over by the RAF after his burial. Tragically the album was lost about 10 years ago when my Father moved house and the only memento that i have are Uncle Charlie’s Pilot Wings, which are mounted in a little glass case. I will post a picture of these very soon.
My elder brother, David had tried to find out about Uncle Charlie via the internet, but had no luck…….until now of course! It was truly amazing to see the pictures of his grave and to be able to read the inscription on the stone. I only wish that Mum was still here to see this,but sadly she passed away in 1990. I always got the impression that his death affected her greatly as they were very close, and their Father had died about a year before, so Mum and her Mother had a lot to deal with in a relatively short time.
I would be really interested if anyone else has any more info about the nature of the crash and why he was over in the USA.I look forward to any more posts that are forthcoming. Thanks, PETER LEES

British repatriation policy used to always be ‘bury them where they fell’ – take the Falklands for example.

It’s only in recent years we have started to routinely repatriate our military dead.

It seems that Alan Clark was right about M A G Wood. This was Pilot Officer Michael Anthony Gray Wood and he was from Woolwich in London. He was born on the 23rd January 1930 and therefore died just five days after his 23rd Birthday.

Interesting to know why a T6 was involved when everything so far suggests San Marcos was a helicopter training base.

J Boyle.

I see what you mean about a repatriation policy, I can only imagine it was because the ‘police action’ was still ongoing in Korea.

Regards,

kev35

Acting Plt Off Michael Anthony Gray WOOD #3511049

Died 28th January 1953