Halifax HR732 4 Dec 43 crash site needed

Andy/Tangmere1940 I tried to send you a PM but your box is full. Could you please drop me a mail (address via my profile or via my website) when you have a mo.

Many thanks
Linzee

Peeps, thank you very much for the helpful advice. The family of Doug Milliken RCAF (rear gunner) twin brother and who recently died, have made contact with 51 Sqdn historians and have been put in touch with the families of 5 other crew members. P/O Salvage’s widow is still going strong and Doug was their best man. The ring had the pilots initials and wedding date inscribed, but there must have been other personal effects for it to be returned to her. The RCAF records might contain a copy of any MREU report, so they will contact all “official” sources for any further information. I’m sorry if I didn’t make that clear.
The purpose of my posting here, and on other fora (sp?) as I discover them, is to see if any of the members have “weird science” that accesses info not available by a quick “Google”. I apologise if I have bumped into any of you in cyberspace, but it isn’t always possible for one site to have ALL the knowledge and identities aren’t always easy to penetrate!
Any way, thanks for this, and anybody who thinks they can help locate where HR732 may have crashed and therefore narrow down the search, please chip in!
I spent yesterday plotting the 25 casualties from the raid on Google Earth nd half lok to have been on the route to Leipzig. HR782 which was shot down by flak near Weiler, Boppard in the vicinity of Mainz reported seeing a bomber hit twice by flak and explode. As HR732 took off at about the same time (0009 and 0012) from Snaith, then it is possible that HR732 was still nearby and could have been this flak casualty. It would also explain why no nightfighter claim (which at least would have given time and location).
A little coincidence is that a 78 Sqdn aircraft LW313 crashed further south and I read the crew names whilst plotting sites. LW313 was the next listed casualty and the rear gunner was a Patrick Regan, aged 18 and one of the youngest BC crew to die. Patrick is my middle name….
So I feel that this is the best time to locate the wreck and what happened to the crew.With your help, the family may at last have a known grave site, even if they may not actually know who is who.
I’ll keep you posted on any updates as info comes in.
Much appreciate what you are doing! Kevin

Linzee

Every single RAF casualty file still exists in a huge secure depository at Hayes. The problem is that the files are to be “weeded” of sensitive personal information before release. That is a gargantuan task and I cannot imagine how or by when it will be done. I worry that, in the end, just a sample selection will be released – with doubt, perhaps, being cast over the future of the others. However, I cannot see how the MOD could justify the destruction of those not earmarked for Kew. Storage at Kew might be the other issue – one can imagine how much space these thousands upon thousands of files take up as they are not just “missing” cases…..but ALL casualties of the RAF.

Hi Kevin,

The link for RAF Commands is http://www.rafcommands.com/forum/index.php I think you need to register to post, any problems let me know and I can make a post for you as I am already registered. Your post should go in the ‘Main Category’ forum rather than the ‘Useful Books & Research Material’. Please note before you post that there is a board policy that states no links or cut and paste from the Lost Bombers site due to copyright issues so best leave out ref to that.

An excellent reference book which will list all the crews and aircraft lost and brief details as known is RAF Bomber Command Losses of the Second World War by W R Chorley. There are 9 volumes and the one you want to look at is Vol 4. It should be available in a decent sized library. There are 26 aircraft losses listed for the same op your Halifax was on but this book only lists Bomber Command losses.

I recently received digital images of the files of two Canadian airman who were lost on ops in October 1944 on an op to Bremen. Only one member of that crew (a Canadian) was ever recovered and his body was washed ashore in Norway two months later. It is worth noting that the files for the Canadian member whose body was never recovered still had some information about the discovery of the Canadian whose body was found which is why I suggest that you persue the files for the Canadian on your Halifax in case there are clues held in his file which will progress your search further.

It might be that an American recovery team discovered the remains of either the aircraft or crew of your Halifax. In which case some research into American records may prove fruitful but first port of call should be the Canadian record as that will hopefull tell you where to look next.

Andy, it’s interesting to note your comments about casualty files being earmarked for public release here in the UK. I have always hit a brick wall in the past and even a complete denial that any MRES reports exist here. I will watch with interest.

Regards
Linzee aka archieraf

PS: I’m also on Pprune as ‘archieraf’ but don’t normally look in the military forum there so hadn’t seen your post.

Kevin

Linzee made most of the same points that I made for you on the TOCH Forum last night but I should add that the Casualty Files are in fact scheduled/earmarked for public release. Indeed, they have already been allocated numbers at TNA Kew and I have been in contact with the MOD over the release process. Whilst we cannot expect anything very soon it might be a useful lever to try to get sight of this specific cas.file…and using your MP as another route (after trying via AHB) may yield results as well. The family connections will be a powerful tool.

Good luck!

Linzee, thanks for your reply. I obviously didn’t set the link correctly for your forum, here’s another go…
http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/329990-gaining-r-f-pilots-brevet-ww11-38.html
it’s the PPRuNe website and the Military Aircrew sub forum that the thread “Gaining an RAF pilots brevet in WW2” is in.

I couldn’t find the RAF Commands forum, it was being spammed a long while ago but Google didn’t throw up anything else….. Do you have the URL ?

Your point about the MRES is a good one. PO Salvage’s widow recalled that it was sent from either Germany or the US. If official RAF channels used I would think she would recall that, although obviously the shock of knowing for certain her husband was dead and time have dimmed details of it.

The rear gunner Sgt Doug Milliken was RCAF and the family of his twin brother (also RCAF who died just over a month ago) are leading fresh efforts to discover what happened and possibly locate the remains of the crew.

Through the 51 Sqdn historians they have made contact with the families of 5 other crew members, including PO Arthur Jack Salvages widow Constance. Sgt Milliken was their best man, so there are many people now hoping that the crash site might be discovered and from there tracing them.

I will pass on your suggestion and they will contact the RCAF to see what their records might hold.

Any good news I will pass on!

Thanks again, and if anyone else has anything useful to say, don’t be bashful.
I’ve spent the afternoon reviewing Lost Bombers and as I put both the 3rd and the 4th in, I inadvertently collected 40 from the Berlin raid the night before.

The Leipzig raid had 25 losses. Of those with known crash sites I have plotted on Google Earth and half of them appear to be on a SE track to Leipzig and likely to be on approach. 2 are close to a direct line from the Wash to Berlin and 2 look to have headed SW towards Luxembourg and close to the Rhine, as if using that as a marker point. That’s where HR782 went down after seeing a bomber explode. The flight took about 8 and a half hours back to base, so these would have at least an hour and a half from just south of Bonn and East of Mainz, putting the crash time at about 7 am. It’s a strange course from Leipzig but may have been an insiders route thought to be clear of flak and fighter….. unfortunately not that night….

Appreciate your help, thanks
Kevin

If the relatives want more information on the loss of the aircraft they can contact the Air Historical Branch – they should be able to help. Good luck.

Icare9, I can’t get the link you posted to work.

Some ideas. Firstly, if the ring of one of the crew was returned to relatives 3 years after the war then it does as you suggest imply that something of the crew must have been found. It is possible that it was discovered during investigations by the Missing Research Enquiry Service (MRES) which was a branch of the RAF set up after the war to search for the airmen overseas who had not returned. Anyone interested in learning more about MRES should read ‘Missing Believed Killed’ by Stuart Hadaway.

Trying to locate MRES files here in the UK is hopeless. The door is closed. Best hope is that there was an Australian or a Canadian on the crew as they have much better access to WWII personnel records which could have some of the MRES documentation relating to the loss/crew in them.

You should get someone to order full copies of the Service Record from the Canadian Archives for the airman Miliken from Canada. They could throw some light on the situation.

Also try posting your request for info over on RAF Commands forum as there are some very good researchers over there and maybe someone has already looked in detail at this loss in the past.

Good luck.

Linzee