Nash & Thompson FN4A rear turret

Hi guys,

Sorry John, still not satisfied with your theory! On the first pic I posted one can clearly see that the loop is closed, it’s firmly attached by both its ends to a triangular mounting plate in the middle of the gun cradle, between the shell ejection holes. It is also quite short, if memory serves me correctly it can’t have been more than, say, 12 cm or so in length. So, as it’s a closed loop there’s no hooking things on it, also there’s only one loop per cradle but you have two rear gun securing pins per cradle so by your theory you’d need two bungee ends per cradle. The rear sear release hoses do dangle down when not connected to the guns.

Finally, none of the photos or drawings we both have show the rear pins to be attached to anything and furthermore, the detailed drawing of such a pin in AP 2799R shows no hole where you could hook your bungee up to!

I for one am sticking to Mike’s explanation which is backed up by his FN121 manual. This is good fun though, isn’t it :)?

Cheers mates,

Walter

FN4A Bungees,

Hi folks,

My theory about the bungees is that the gun pins are loose, so would be secured to stop them falling into the drum and then down into the aircraft works through the holes in the drum, causing goodness knows what damage. As Walter says, you can see the hoses are already fixed to the gun cradles, so why put a loop around something that can’t fall?

Well just to back-up my theory, I seem to remember a comment on the ‘Gun Turret Drill’ training film, when talking about the gun cocking tools, ”taking care not to drop the tools…….” Anyway, it’s only a theory, though it actually works, as I’ve proved when trial fitting my replica guns. I had to make the pins from scratch, but couldn’t replicate that off-centre ‘plunger’- I made four clevis type pins instead, only ‘turret-heads’ will know the difference!(Thankfully I’m probably the only one in N.Ireland)
That’s it for now chums, cheers
John

Hi Mike,

This is fun indeed! I’ll be happy to post some pics of the model project once it finally materializes – you’ll have to be very patient though as my darling wife keeps feeding me with additional things to do in and around the house :(!
In meantime I’m happily collecting reference material though!

Cheers,
Walter

Hi John,

I’m curious to hear your theory/method of using the bungees to retain the gun release pins. My dad found our only gun release pin on the floor of a turret.

I certainly enjoy sharing details & photos on this subject. That is what makes forums like this great!

Regards,

Hi Walter,

I know all about house renovations & turret projects! Any chance you might share some photos of your turret model?

Correct, the photograph is also of a FN121 turret.

I’m not sure what the photo flash bulb is for. If you do find out, please share with us.

Regards,

Hi John!

I was expecting a reaction fm your end 🙂 ! Attaching a photo of the RH gun cradle of the Brussels turret prior to restoration, clearly showing the original bungee loop between the guns. Second photo shows same cradle after restoration minus guns – you can hardly see the loop but the dangling hoses are clearly long enough to be secured by the loop. Third photo (WW2images) shows an FN4 interior minus the guns and though unclear it would appear the hoses are “attached” to the top of the cradle. The hoses in the Brussels turret were plain rubber, ie not sheathed, braided or however you call it so pretty flexible, even after the odd 60 years. I for one am perfectly happy with Mike’s answer…

Cheers chum,

Walter

FN bungees

Hi Folks,

Well call me doubting Thomas if you like, but I’m not convinced! On the FN4a the hoses are so short that they aint goin anywhere when you release them from the guns- it’s not as if they can fall into the works, in fact they sit almost straight thanks to the outer copper sheath fitted to ours. Also bear in mind that various ad-hoc modifications were carried out at different airfields, so until I see it in black and white………..(Am I being a pain in the a*** or what?!)

Seriously though, good to see more info on this subject coming out, it’s what keeps the interest going for me anyway. I keep meaning to upload some pics. so maybe in a few days I’ll have a go at posting.

All the best chums
John

Mike, thanks ever so much for clearing that mistery! The loops in the FN4A are in a somewhat different position than those shown on the FN121 (is the one in the photograph an FN121 too?) but they are identical in “construction” to the ones shown in the AP page and your photo.

Thanks for your photo and info offer too! As for me, I’m not into restoring (in Belgium we sadly haven’t any scrap yards where one could find surplus RAF turrets!) but the RAF’s WW2 turrets have always fascinated me and back in ’95, thanks to Wallace’s excellent volumes on British Aircraft Armament I was able to correctly identify a tail turret on show in the Brussels Army Museum as an FN4A originating from a Whitley (till then it had simply been labelled as “a British rear turret from a Lancaster”). Then the idea sprouted of building a scale model of the turret and the museum kindly allowed me full access to their example and I was able to take lots of detail photos and measurements. And then we bought this house in need of renovation and the model project was put in the freezer so to say. The project was sort of revived again when 3 years or so ago I saw that the museum was restoring its FN4A. Got in touch with the restoration team leader and found he had documentation I didn’t have and vice versa so we exchanged and I had another photo session of the turret minus the cupola. As an added bonus the team leader got me in touch with John Blair who as you know his singlehandedly restoring the UAS’ FN4A and a brilliant job he’s made of it too. I’ve seen it myself when we holidayed in N.Ireland last July!

That’s the story in a nutshell! I can fairly say that even if I don’t own an FN4A I know it pretty intimately. As for the model project, well the house renovation is nearly finished…

There now remains only one FN4A mistery to solve – on the below extract of the Air Diagram we have object no 8 identified as a photo flash bulb. Any idea as to what that would be for because firing off a flash bulb next to the gunner’s head wouldn’t do his night vision any good, nor his day vision either!

Cheers,
Walter

Hi John – There are no clips or rings on these hoses either. The loose ends of lines where simply placed into the bungee loop.

Hi Walter – Thanks for offer of help with any FN4A details & photos. I have tons of turret photos too, if you ever need help yourself…..give me a shout!

Are you working on the same project as John?

Here is what I could dig up…….

AP2799F, Vol.1 – FN121 Turret

I hope this helps.

Regards,
Mike

FN4a Turret bungees

Hi Walter and Mike!

Mike, Walter and I have been debating this subject for a while, and my theory was that the bungees were used to retain the rear retaining bolts on the gun brackets, to stop them falling into the floor drum during re-arming, so if you can solve that one, that’s another(probably the last) piece of the jig-saw!

By the way, on the ‘Ulster’ turret, there were no clips or rings on the existing firing hoses which would have suggested an attachment to the bungees, but I’m looking forward to any pics. which will prove the point!

All the best to you both,

Cheers
John

Many thanks Mike, that would make perfect sense! If you could find me a pic of the loop doing its thing that would be just great! If I in turn can help you with any FN4A details let me know, I’ve got quite a bit of detail photos, near to 500 now I guess!

Cheers,

Walter

Hi Walter,

It supports the flexible lines to the sear release when they are not attached to the weapon. Probably so that they don’t leak.

I will try and find you a picture.

Regards,