Small Air Forces and Unusual Markings/Colors

Radar Calibration Hurricane Mk.I

A brilliant Hawker Hurricane Mk.I in overall red, Hornchurch, 1943. Used for gun calibration, Thames forts, and Type I radar at Stoke Holy Cross, Orby and High Street. Doped with high-reflectivity paint. The artist is Seweryn Fleischer. From the Wings Palette website, at http://wp.scn.ru.

Afghan Hawker Hind

Here are a couple of photos of an Afghan Hawker Hind, from the site “Roundels of the World,” at
http://cocardes.monde.online.fr/v2html/en/maj.html.

Thanks, Everybody

Chaps,

I am concerned that someone (or anyone) feels that this discussion has degenerated into “flaming”. Surely not? That was certainly not my intention!

Claims like these are commonplace in such a complex subject (e.g. WW2). Switch the country of operation for a moment– ‘a squadron of German pilots defecting to the UK where they operated captured Fw 190s against the homeland’. Virtually every person on this forum would quickly post to rubbish this idea as ‘nonsense’, which it is. This is true because the main expertise to be had here devolves around the RAF; ergo, it would be seen to be “obvious” that such a claim was wrong. My expertise devolves around the VVS, so I simply answered in precisely the same manner, with the impossibility of the claim being similarly self-evident to me. I intended no flaming nor insults.

Maple01 recalled photos of 190Ds in VVS markings. There were a number of such aircraft. Indeed, there were a formidable number of captured German aircraft in Soviet markings. These were evaluated by the air force (VVS)– sometimes even at the regimental level– and by the various testing fraternities. With a singular exception (this during the winter of 1941/42 in the 402 IAP), none of these aircraft were flown on military missions nor employed in combat. The often seen caption that they were ‘turned on their original users’ is the typical such myth.

As I reckon Fabe was pointing out, such employment would not be overly wise. Not only in terms of recognition, mind, but in simple logistics. Combat flying is exceedingly demanding on aircraft, and were such machines to be used in this way they would be rendered unflyable after 2-3 sorties. And how then should they be serviced and repaired? Used, as they actually were, in orientation and familiarisation flights, such captured machines could remain in flyable condition for months. And so they did.

Now, to get us back on track (as it were) with relevance to the original thread, here is a profile of exactly such an ex-Luftwaffe fighter in VVS markings. This Bf 109G-2 was photographed at the LII (one of the Soviet testing fraternities) during the autumn of 1942.

The profile and Copyright are via E. Pilawskii

I appreciate everybody’s feedback on the FW-190. That’s one reason forums like this are so great- they not only promote the spread of knowledge, but also the verification and validation of that knowledge.

Chaps,

I am concerned that someone (or anyone) feels that this discussion has degenerated into “flaming”. Surely not? That was certainly not my intention!

Claims like these are commonplace in such a complex subject (e.g. WW2). Switch the country of operation for a moment– ‘a squadron of German pilots defecting to the UK where they operated captured Fw 190s against the homeland’. Virtually every person on this forum would quickly post to rubbish this idea as ‘nonsense’, which it is. This is true because the main expertise to be had here devolves around the RAF; ergo, it would be seen to be “obvious” that such a claim was wrong. My expertise devolves around the VVS, so I simply answered in precisely the same manner, with the impossibility of the claim being similarly self-evident to me. I intended no flaming nor insults.

Maple01 recalled photos of 190Ds in VVS markings. There were a number of such aircraft. Indeed, there were a formidable number of captured German aircraft in Soviet markings. These were evaluated by the air force (VVS)– sometimes even at the regimental level– and by the various testing fraternities. With a singular exception (this during the winter of 1941/42 in the 402 IAP), none of these aircraft were flown on military missions nor employed in combat. The often seen caption that they were ‘turned on their original users’ is the typical such myth.

As I reckon Fabe was pointing out, such employment would not be overly wise. Not only in terms of recognition, mind, but in simple logistics. Combat flying is exceedingly demanding on aircraft, and were such machines to be used in this way they would be rendered unflyable after 2-3 sorties. And how then should they be serviced and repaired? Used, as they actually were, in orientation and familiarisation flights, such captured machines could remain in flyable condition for months. And so they did.

Now, to get us back on track (as it were) with relevance to the original thread, here is a profile of exactly such an ex-Luftwaffe fighter in VVS markings. This Bf 109G-2 was photographed at the LII (one of the Soviet testing fraternities) during the autumn of 1942.

The profile and Copyright are via E. Pilawskii

Why such aggression. Let’s face it with Small Air Forces NOTHING is impossible evene if some things are unlikely. I think it is extremely unlikely it was German. Why? Because of the symbols.

Germans fighting with the SU may have existed, but if they did they were probably hard line communists or far left socialist. Two leading members of “Freies Deutschland were the later president of East Germany and Walter Ullbricht later on leader of East Germany.

-Such people would never paint a militaristic cross on their aircraft (even today’s German leftists dislike the eiserne Kreuz painted on their aircraft and used by the Federal Army).

-The black, white and red flag was equally disliked by them, these political groups already used gold red black in the 1920s (or simply red). Black, white and red as seen on the roundel were traditionally colors of the empire and, later on, of the Nazis. After WW2 those colors have only been used by the extreme right parties.

-Imagine you man a piece of anti-aircraft artillery, you see a Focke Wulf coming in. From a far distance you see it has some crosses. What do you do?

A bit of rational analysis instead of senseless flaming.

Isn’t there a photo of a FW-190D in red stars captured in East Prussa doing the rounds? It usually is captioned something allong the lines that so many were captured they were turned against their origional users and issued to a Red Airforce unit – mind you memory is starting to go…..

Perhaps someone will be kind enough to draw this response to the attention of Moggy C!

I’m pretty confident that the great eye of Moggy c has already been here and found nothing to moderate. Surely its not against forum rules to ask questions, when there is no flaming involved.

This forum is very well moderated, so there is no need for drawing attention to anything, least at all a question like this.

Although the burden of evidence seems to have been reversed in this particular case (the original posts), which is also what NII_VVS wrote in his answer.

No Bother To Me

Perhaps someone will be kind enough to draw this response to the attention of Moggy C!

I merely pointed out the obvious- if a moderator has an issue with an objective, factual, non-threatening question, he or she should not be a moderator. I’d be happy to inform the moderator in question myself. I’m certain he would agree.

If a moderator is stupid enough to castigate someone for asking a question like that, they shouldn’t be moderating.

Perhaps someone will be kind enough to draw this response to the attention of Moggy C!

Ok, I was only posting about the possibility of individual defectors, as I misunderstood your post regarding the unlikely scenario, to be suggesting that it was impossible (that individuals joined USSR).

You seem absolutely sure- do you have any solid, undeniable proof?

I am struggling to understand the relevance of such a comment… “Undeniable proof” of something which is not the case? “Proving” negatives? Allow me to suggest that a refresher course is needed here with regards to scientific method.

[Mondariz] “Utterly impossible are strong words.”

Yes, but properly chosen. There is no argument to be had that such a unit did not exist within the Soviet VVS. No record exists of such a unit, no pilots were attached to said non-existent group, no Army nor Divisional orders were ever issued to such, no maintenance was carried out on such, and no collection nor handling of captured spare parts required to service such a unit was undertaken. When there is no such evidence, we may indeed say it did not exist with authority.

Regarding defections, these were in fact known in individual cases. No argument there, and it was not my intention to suggest that defections to the USSR were unlikely, as such. But an entire squadron of German pilots? Who were then allowed to operate within the Army flying captured aircraft? In my view I would say this is quite impossible. And, surely had the government permitted such an effort (one presumes for propaganda reasons) it would have highlighted the existence and activities of this unit so that knowledge of it would be common? Such a squadron would have been unique and very newsworthy, no? Such a unit would not be the stuff of rumours and whispers.

Perhaps it is seen to be ‘out of form’ to condemn such ideas so strongly, but in this case I simply could see no other response was required. My apologies.

You Must Be Kidding

Cor, I was chided by a certain moderator for asking a question only half as assertive as this!

If a moderator is stupid enough to castigate someone for asking a question like that, they shouldn’t be moderating.

You seem absolutely sure- do you have any solid, undeniable proof?

Cor, I was chided by a certain moderator for asking a question only half as assertive as this!

“Supposedly” indeed. That is 100% mythology, in fact. There was no such VVS unit and no such VVS operations of FW 190s. Moreover, I have never heard of any organised defection of Nazi pilots to the USSR, nor could I imagine why they would attempt it, nor could I believe that they would be accepted by Soviet authorities. Utterly impossible.

Never heard about it either, but defection to the USSR is not all that unlikely.

Surely you are aware, that not all German pilots were nazi’s. Some might even have harboured socialist ideas, as the actual socialist (not the national socialist) party had plenty of members in pre-war Germany.

Utterly impossible are strong words.

After all; second lieutenant Martin James Monti defected to Germany along with his P-38.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_James_Monti

Far Eastern Republic Farman 30

A Far Eastern Republic Farman 30. From the book “Aviation in the Civil War in Russia,” by Vyacheslav Kondratiev and Marat Khairulin.

Undeniable Proof?

“Supposedly” indeed. That is 100% mythology, in fact. There was no such VVS unit and no such VVS operations of FW 190s. Moreover, I have never heard of any organised defection of Nazi pilots to the USSR, nor could I imagine why they would attempt it, nor could I believe that they would be accepted by Soviet authorities. Utterly impossible.

You seem absolutely sure- do you have any solid, undeniable proof?

There was supposedly a Soviet unit of Fw 190s flown by German pilots that had defected. The aircraft are described as having red crosses. The profile fits the description but how much is conjecture? I have never been able to find out anything about this unit or if it even did exist. I also wonder if these pilots were some other nationality such as Latvian or Estonian that had fought for the Germans.

“Supposedly” indeed. That is 100% mythology, in fact. There was no such VVS unit and no such VVS operations of FW 190s. Moreover, I have never heard of any organised defection of Nazi pilots to the USSR, nor could I imagine why they would attempt it, nor could I believe that they would be accepted by Soviet authorities. Utterly impossible.

Does this qualify?

There was supposedly a Soviet unit of Fw 190s flown by German pilots that had defected. The aircraft are described as having red crosses. The profile fits the description but how much is conjecture? I have never been able to find out anything about this unit or if it even did exist. I also wonder if these pilots were some other nationality such as Latvian or Estonian that had fought for the Germans.

The Bulgarian D-VII has been scanned from the inside cover of Bulgarian Fighters Part 1 by Dimitar Nedialkov. Bulgaria received eight D-VIIs which were never used in combat. The Treaty of Neuilly-sur-Seine forbad, like Germany, Bulgaria having an air force. All its aircraft were broken up apart from one D-VII which was converted to civil use having a second cockpit fitted and used as a trainer. It bore the registration B-BIXP.

Bulgarian Fokker D-VII

Here’s another profile passed on to me by Jim Sanders of SAFO, created by a gentleman named P. Mandjukov. It’s a Bulgarian Fokker D-VII, in Entente occupation markings. I didn’t know that Bulgaria even used the D-VII, but it looks like they did.