Amherst Villiers and the Gloster IV and VI seaplanes

Paul,

Check your PMs

Cheers

Ralph

Paul,

Here is an image of the 1/4 scale wooden model of the Gloster VI Model No 2 Landplane that was tested in the NPL windtunnel in 1927.

Model No 2 (of 4) suggests that the concept for a landplane version was considered quite early on in the programme.

Send me a PM with your e-mail address and I will send you a higher resolution copy plus three more.

Cheers

Ralph

Wonderful Ralph, thank you. I will send you a pm right now!

I wonder, has anyone done a book on the NPL? I think it is the most extraordinary place, yet the neighbours I know who work there today don’t seem to appreciate the significance of their surroundings.

I read a while back that the NPL did the stress testing on models of New York’s Twin Towers prior to their construction. They even simulated a 707 flying into them, but the 747 didn’t exist then…

Thanks again and best wishes.

Paul

Paul,

Sorry, typing error, obviously that should read Gloster GIV

Cheers

Ralph

Paul,

Here is an image of the 1/4 scale wooden model of the Gloster VI Model No 2 Landplane that was tested in the NPL windtunnel in 1927.

Model No 2 (of 4) suggests that the concept for a landplane version was considered quite early on in the programme.

Send me a PM with your e-mail address and I will send you a higher resolution copy plus three more.

Cheers

Ralph

Paul,

You are quite correct about the landplane air speed record lagging far behind that for seaplanes and Doolittle only took it up to 296 in 1932, so you have a point.

Take-off and landing run for the GIV would indeed have been an issue but the performance of the GIV was relatively benign and N224 had larger span than the GIVA and B, which would have helped. The view from the cockpit, however, was dreadful, which would have made landing traumatic to say the least. The US developed both land and seaplane versions of their racers through to ’27 and in France the Bernard HV120 Schneider racer of 1930 was reworked as the landplane V4 for an attempt on the record. So you would think that it would have proven possible to find a suitable runway somewhere, even if this had to be outside the UK.

Information on the perfromance of the GVI is very limited as they made so few flights, but the take-off run appears to have been easier and considerably shorter than for the Supermarines. Now a landplane version of that would really have been something.

Cheers

Ralph

Paul,

To get back to your original questions, I have never come across any photographs of the Gloster GIV on wheeled undercarriage and the only two short published references to the sale of N224 that I am aware of are in ‘Flight’, as mentioned before, and in ‘Schneider Trophy’ by Sqn Ldr Orlebar. I can scan the information and photos regarding wind-tunnel tests of the wheeled GIV model in 1927 when I get back to the UK next week if you like. I assume that Villiers must already have purchased a Lion VIIA or B as the Gloster would have required extensive reworking to accommodate any other engine.

Your references to the sale of the Gloster GVI are completely new to me. I have not been able to locate any information on these aircraft post 1931 after the High Speed Flight was disbanded. Indeed the same is so for the Supermarine S5s and the S6b S1596. It does sound dubious to me that they would have been seriously considered for modification to landplanes, but there have always been aspirational folk out there willing to take on a challenge so its not impossible by any means. Getting the Lion VIIDs to run smoothly in the aircraft defeated the Napier, Gloster and HSF engineers so that alone would have been a task and a half.

There is footage of Atcherleys stunt flying at Clevelend in 1932 at www.itnsource.com . Search on Atcherley and look for the clip called Britain’s Flying Ace, there is a free viewing option.

Cheers

Ralph

Ralph

Thanks very much for this, and for your kind offer of scanning the wind-tunnel tests and images. I should love to have them.

I’m confident that Amherst could have got his hands on a Lion VIIA or B. By 1930 he’d had his own contacts at Napier for at least four years, by virtue of designing Malcolm Campbell’s first Bluebird around a Lion, the engine being his suggestion.

As for the Gloster VI, this is the opening paragraph from an article in ‘The Aeroplane’ of 14 April 1937. Mr Amherst Villiers has long been engaged in experiemental work on both car and aero motors and some years ago he bought both the Gloster Napier IV and Gloster Napier VI of Schneider fame with the idea of putting them on wheels for an attempt on the World’s Land Speed record. The Gloster VI had already reached 336 mph on floats with only about 70% of the designed power, so the prospects were bright. But those were the days before flappage, and no aerodrome was big enough to cope with the estimated landing run, so the idea had to lie dormant.

What bemuses me about this is that if Amherst had found it a problem to locate a long enough runway for the IV, how was he going to find one for the VI?

Rgds

Paul

All,

I don’t have access to my copy of the 1927 research report right now (Chumpy, I believe you have a copy, can you check?) but as far as I recall the drag of the floatplane GIV was not markedly higher than the wheeled version. The GIVB’s fastest lap in the 1927 Schneider was just below 290 mph so it does indeed seem doubtful that in 1930 she would have been capable of taking the landplane airspeed record.

Actually Ralph, per that Flight article of 16 May 1930, the land plane record hadn’t been broken since December 1924, and still stood at 278.5 mph to a Frenchman named Bonnet. It was a lot lower than the overall record, which Orlebar had set at 357.7 mph in an S6 in September 1929.

Amherst must have throught that with Atcherley in the cockpit, they stood a pretty good chance of beating the landplane record.

If only there’d been a long enough runway…

Rgds

Paul

Paul,

To get back to your original questions, I have never come across any photographs of the Gloster GIV on wheeled undercarriage and the only two short published references to the sale of N224 that I am aware of are in ‘Flight’, as mentioned before, and in ‘Schneider Trophy’ by Sqn Ldr Orlebar. I can scan the information and photos regarding wind-tunnel tests of the wheeled GIV model in 1927 when I get back to the UK next week if you like. I assume that Villiers must already have purchased a Lion VIIA or B as the Gloster would have required extensive reworking to accommodate any other engine.

Your references to the sale of the Gloster GVI are completely new to me. I have not been able to locate any information on these aircraft post 1931 after the High Speed Flight was disbanded. Indeed the same is so for the Supermarine S5s and the S6b S1596. It does sound dubious to me that they would have been seriously considered for modification to landplanes, but there have always been aspirational folk out there willing to take on a challenge so its not impossible by any means. Getting the Lion VIIDs to run smoothly in the aircraft defeated the Napier, Gloster and HSF engineers so that alone would have been a task and a half.

There is footage of Atcherleys stunt flying at Clevelend in 1932 at www.itnsource.com . Search on Atcherley and look for the clip called Britain’s Flying Ace, there is a free viewing option.

Cheers

Ralph

Atcherle definitely vidited the Cleveland air race in 1931 and possibly 1932 as well – He was not racing though – looks like demonstration only, he had an accident in 1931 there. I woul check out www.airrace.com and also the news archives at news.google.com – though you will have to pay to view the details

All,

So Fields certainly kept himself busy in the evenings!

I don’t have access to my copy of the 1927 research report right now (Chumpy, I believe you have a copy, can you check?) but as far as I recall the drag of the floatplane GIV was not markedly higher than the wheeled version. The GIVB’s fastest lap in the 1927 Schneider was just below 290 mph so it does indeed seem doubtful that in 1930 she would have been capable of taking the landplane airspeed record.

The GVI was not windtunnel tested in landplane form, at least not prior to the 1929 contest. If the Lion VIID could have been coaxed to run smoothly who knows what speeds she could have acheived, after all the engine went on to establish records on water (Miss Britain III) and land (Bluebird and Napier Railton Special).

Cheers

Ralph

There are a couple of brief passages relating to C.B. Field in the British Light Planes volume by Arthur Ord-Hume.
Mention made of him converting various Avro’s for ariel banner towing work. eg G-ACAW fitted with a large roller blind type affair under the lower wing, painted a repulisve bright red and dark yellow, based at Hanworth for a time.

Chumpy.

Paul, Ralph (and indeed Malcolm, should he see this!)

Thanks, I knew this forum would provide a rich seam of information. It’s good to know what happened to the IV, and I’m intrigued to learn that the NPL wind-tested it in landplane form early on – I can’t help but have a soft spot for the NPL, I live in Teddington…

And thanks too, I have the ‘Flight’ article of May 1930.

Let me clarify what I know about the Gloster VI. The article in ‘The Aeroplane’ of April 1937 is actually about Amherst’s Maya engine as fitted in G-AERC, the one-off (in terms of its engine) Miles Whitney Straight M11B. Only the opening paragraph refers to both the G IV and G VI, in the context of ‘some years ago’.

Phil Henderson’s letter to Amherst is dated 9 June 1932, and refers to the G VI. Amherst’s letter to Lt Comm Langworthy (who ran the London office of the Chicago ‘Century of Progress’ celebrations) is dated 7 July 1932, and states ‘Dick Atcherley will fly the Gloster’ – he doesn’t state which one, but I think we can assume it’s the G VI. The G IV would hardly have stood a chance against contemporary competition in the American air races of 1933.

I have access to the on-line ‘Flight’ archive. Can you suggest anywhere else I should be searching for evidence of Atcherley racing a G VI in the American air races of 1933?

Thanks again for your insights.

Best wishes

Paul

CB Fields

Was based at Kingswood Knoll, Surrey

Amongst the aircraft he bought, converted and flew were

HAWKER TOMTIT J9782 G-AFFL which he flew in the June 1937 Isle of Man race
http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1937/1937%20-%201462.html

Avro 504N G-AEAA

He also bought and scrapped SE5a G-EBTK in 11.34

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/HistoricalMaterial/G-EBTK.pdf

He also dismantled G-AAWK – DUDLEY WATT DW2

and ‘created’ 3 Avro 552’s (from the Avro 504) G-ACAW G-AXAX G-ACRP

Also see: http://www.goldenyears.ukf.net/reg_G-A4.htm

Paul (both Pauls)

Very interesting information regarding the possible fate of the GVIs, I had not previously come across any references to these aircraft after 1931. Although both N249 and N250 remained attached to the High Speed Flight at Felixstowe through to 1931 they were flown only rarely as the Napier Lion VIIDs continued to perform erratically even after several modifications to the intakes and carbs.

Who was Charles Brian Field? The name is new to me. The two S5s, N219 and N220, were pretty world weary by the time the High Speed Flight had finished with them in 1931. Snaith, writing in 1981, comments on the leaks from the cooling system and poor handling from worn controls

The GIV in landplane form was tested in the NPL windtunnel as part of the 1927 Schneider Trophy research programme, so presumably the idea for making a speed record attempt pre-dates Villiers purchase of the airframe by a few years. His purchase of N224 from the Air Ministry is reported in “Flight” of 16th May 1930.

Any further information would be great

Cheers

Ralph

Paul

I asked your questions on AB-IX – Air Britain Information Exchange and Malcolm Fillmore kindly provided the following

“Villiers bought the Gloster IV N224 in May 1930 from the Air Ministry
without an engine. Villiers was going to put his own Napier Lion engine
in it and fit a wheeled undercarriage in order to make an attempt of the
world land air speed record. In the event, he did not progress this
venture and sold the airframe to Charles Brian Field of Kingswood,
Surrey in about 1933/34. Field also acquired the Supermarine S.5s N219
and N220 at the same time with a similar view in mind but I do not know
what happened next.

I do not know which of the Gloster VIs Villiers bought, nor what
happened to it. But I did think the purchase might have been earlier
than 1937.

Malcolm Fillmore”