Spitfire – Supermarine support during WW2

No specific credit for the AST photos. A note on the rear cover states, the major source of the photos is from the picture library of the Southern Daily Echo.

Thanks so much!

Thanks

Thanks very much to all those who have provided responses.

Regards
John

Hi Voytech,
No specific credit for the AST photos. A note on the rear cover states, the major source of the photos is from the picture library of the Southern Daily Echo.

Chumpy.

The photo is from Southampton at War by Anthony Kemp, Ensign Pubs, 1994.

Is there a credit for the photo?

an early Mk1 R6687.

Apparently damaged in an OTU in May 1944, but never repaired.

it is either VL-B or YL-B, serial sarts with an R.

Probably a No. 322 Sqn Mk XIV coded VL-B. Possibly RB160 or RB184, both damaged in May 1944.

Chumpy, can i ask where they photo is from? I can’t quite tell but is that DL-B in the middle? And is it an XIV or an XII?

Dan,
Having squinted a bit closer at one of the other photos, it is either VL-B or YL-B, serial sarts with an R.

Chumpy, can i ask where they photo is from? I can’t quite tell but is that DL-B in the middle? And is it an XIV or an XII?

Hi Dan..and Voy,
The photo is from Southampton at War by Anthony Kemp, Ensign Pubs, 1994.

It has a couple of pages devoted to AST but no detailed text as such. The ‘inside’ shots seem to show mostly XIVs with a few ‘Merlin’ variants amongst them. Reproduction is not all that great, so difficult to say if it is DL-B or not.

On a preceeding page is a view of the external storage yard, many wrecks on view. Quite a few with ‘invasion stripes’ so 1944/ 45 period, buried amongst them all an early Mk1 R6687.

Oh to go back in time, camera in hand etc!

Cheers, Chumpy.

I think we perhaps should clearly differentiate the function of ‘Product Support’ and the ‘Civilian Repair Organisation’.

I have always thought (probably through assumption!) that CWPs supported type at RAF MU and ASU bases, and that CROs were civilian companies and premises where aircraft were taken to for support.
Is this correct?

As an example to the importance of CWPs, Llandow had to wait until they were established properly and suitably housed before its work could properly start. I do know that there were Avro CWPs there for Lancaster support.

Sorry to be wandering of topic slightly!

The firm nominated by (1940-46: Ministry of Aircraft Production; today, QinetiQ) as Design Authority may differ from that nominated as Technical Authority. So Vulcan Design Authority was Avro (actually I daresay it was HSAL), but XH558’s Technical Authority is Marshall Aerospace. The change is made when the Design Team scatters, or is assigned by MAP to more important things than Product Support. Lancaster ceased to be Avro’s baby in 1943, AWA as Sister Firm, to liberate Avro for (to be Lincoln). Supermarine was relieved of care for existing product in early-1941; Seafire was assigned to Westland, who soon added Sister Firm for early Spit. Marks. They in turn employed Cunliffe-Owen, Eastleigh/Marwell Hall, and General A/C, Hanworth. At Oxford the Civilian Repair Organisation formed the ability to write Repair Schemes and to assign work to Civilian Repair Units. Largest for Spitfire, handling 3,507, was Air Service Training, Hamble/Exeter/Marwell Hall, but Miles did >2,000 at Woodley, Scottish Avn >1,200 at Prestwick, DH did 399 at Witney, Rootes worked on them at Meir. Units could receive CWPs from any of them, and from Reid & Sigrist, Desford and Marshall’s, Teversham, who specialised in CWP work on all/any type.

I think we perhaps should clearly differentiate the function of ‘Product Support’ and the ‘Civilian Repair Organisation’.

The Air Ministry produced a number of Spitfire Air Publications detailing ‘battle damage repair schemes’ to cover most eventualities within the classifications of Flying Accident/Flying Battle from local on site repairs through to RIW – Repaired in Works at a CRO.

Although I cannot remember or currently find any direct references in wartime conditions, it is inconceivable that that there would not have been a team or department dedicated within the Vickers & Supermarine operation to sorting out problems that developed in service. Their job to liaise in the field, to report, to find solutions and instigate modification programmes to resolve technical issues.

Rolls Royce certainly had ‘technical reps’ in the field and I know that post WWII Vickers had resident engineers on site with Air Forces that re-equipped with Spitfires. Indeed their rep in Burma, Len Elves, supporting the Seafire XV programme, generously gave me some technical papers and parts.

Here is a shot of Len with Flt Lt Roy Maslen at Hmawbi in Spring 1954.

Anybody knowing the whereabouts of family Maslen, please pm 🙂

Mark

Image: Ian Pedder

Chumpy, can i ask where they photo is from?

I was going to ask the same question. A very nice view of No. 302 Sqn’s WX-E in the foreground. In all probability ML124, damaged cat. B on 28 October 1944.

My uncle was an inspector at Supermarine in Southampton. One of his jobs was to visit RAF stations to check on the modification states of the aircraft, so they could be upgraded where necessary. He told me this work at dispersals was sometimes interrupted by bombing raids. Aircraft were also shot down before the remedial work could be carried out. He had about 40 different items to check memorised.

Whether the work was done by the RAF ground crews or others I don’t know.

Aircraft were also sent back to Supermarine on occasion. Again, he told me about a Mark XIV Spitfire that had been in a dogfight with an FW190. It pulled out of a dive so hard that the wings were bent up out of true. The design department produced a special repair schedule to get it back in the air again.

Hope this helps.

YR

Armstrong Whitworth had employees on secondment to 10 OTU which operated Whitleys.

There seems to be a reasonable amount on CROs at the national archives – try doing a search – some of this may help. There must also be a ton of Supermarine related material in there.

..Mucho repair work on Spits carried out by Air Service Training at Hamble during WW2. One of the largest CROs involved in this work I am led to understand.

Chumpy, can i ask where they photo is from? I can’t quite tell but is that DL-B in the middle? And is it an XIV or an XII?

John, it doesn’t quite answer your question, but I just posted a new thread relating to support from de Havilland in June 1940.

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=83873

Jeffrey Quill mentions in his autobiography that they were well aware
about problems with the spit and info from the squadrons was readily
available. he himself joined a squadron to find out himself

cheers

Cees

..Mucho repair work on Spits carried out by Air Service Training at Hamble during WW2. One of the largest CROs involved in this work I am led to understand.

A useful book?

It’s been a while since I read it, but I remember Leo McKinstry’s book
Spitfire: Birth of a Legend was extremely well-written and detailed. Whilst acknowledging that I’m far from being an expert on the Spitfire, there was a fair bit of totally new (to me) information in it. It may hold answers to your questions, and, if nothing else, does provide an excellent read IMHO.

Rich.

Yes the CWPs and CROs seem to have very little current evidence and dedication to the vital work that they caried out during the war.

Its the evidence bit I’m short of as well! have to hoep that Mk 12 reads my original post.

Have just found that there was a “Civilian Repair Organisation”, which carried out considerable work, but am again finding problems in locating much on them!

I was under the impression that Vickers Supermarine had Contractor Working Parties at various MUs and ASUs.
I don’t have evidence of this however, I’m thinkng Mk12 will know for sure.