68 years ago today……

Salute to one and all

R I P Brave souls

Hi James,

I also know that J J Booth of 600 Squadron regularly flew with his pet Monkey ‘Minnie’ during The Battle of Britain. In fact, when the monkey died he had it stuffed and presented to the Squadron. I have a press cutting somewhere about this.

Gerry.

HI gedburke, I wonder where you got the info on JJ Booth and Minnie. I am an archivist for 600 and very interested in finding more about this story, particularly as I just found a very very small photo from WW2 with both in it, Minnie sitting on the wing of a Blenheim.

http://www.battleofbritain.net/bobhsoc/index.html

I’m not trying to question the aware of any medal to anybody being shot at at all – but looking back with perfect hind sight, there do seem to be some , “unequal” awards?

I believe in WW1 that there was still a requirement for an officer to witness the deed. Many men may have gone unrewarded because their deed was driven by the death of the last handy officer. I’m unsure whether or not this was the case by 1940, but fighter cockpits were the sort of place you were unlikely to find any half-decent witness.

Propaganda awards? Hard to say – there was usually a reasonable delay between the event and the award being Gazetted. And history plays funny tricks – look at James Kirk VC (http://www.manchester2002-uk.com/celebs/military2.html). Close to forgotten in an action that would largely have faded from the public mind had it not been for some poet who was killed.

Adrian

Does anyone have any information on a P/O Mathews, a Spitfire pilot, shot down and killed during the BoB; I seem to remember he baled out, but died of his injuries, but may be wrong.

Can’t think why I couldn’t re-locate my post this am before any of you were up. I wrote it after 3 Scotches & wished to withdraw it. Bad comparisons to boot.

But, speaking soberly & without sentiment I still believe that, whatever the action, it was not a selfless attempt to save ones comrades or a just cause.

I’m sorry – when I was on fire, I got out. PDQ!! And I’m not ashamed.

= Tim

Its a good point, and given that I’ve read other documentation about awards (don’t recall the name, but a wounded bomber pilot who stayed at the controls) and the paperwork indicated an “element of self preservation” in staying at the controls….. there is an inequality to medal awards however given. Fairey Battle, France 1940, 3 crew, 2 medals – maybe we are looking with 21st century eyes, James Nicolsons aware may have had a propaganda element to it, who knows. good debate though…

I’m not trying to question the aware of any medal to anybody being shot at at all – but looking back with perfect hind sight, there do seem to be some , “unequal” awards?

Can’t think why I couldn’t re-locate my post this am before any of you were up. I wrote it after 3 Scotches & wished to withdraw it. Bad comparisons to boot.

But, speaking soberly & without sentiment I still believe that, whatever the action, it was not a selfless attempt to save ones comrades or a just cause.

I’m sorry – when I was on fire, I got out. PDQ!! And I’m not ashamed.

= Tim

I was going to make a rather snotty reply last night, but didn’t, and am glad I didn’t as another thread has reminded me who cotteswold is! Certainly a case where I am more than happy to at least defer an opinion to more experienced judgement!

It’s an interesting viewpoint – must re-read the story again to see at what point in the proceedings he decided to have another go…

Adrian

N****r in the Woodpile – a different point of view.

I cannot see how the stupidity of someone being injured in trying for a kill should merit a VC. Much better to survive & up your score? A publicity move?

Hannah – yes, a hundred times over. And today – covering a grenade to save your chums (& yourself, yes) – yes.

= Tim

Intersting that Rocketeer should choose to flag up August 16th 1940. I have a shoebox under my desk of fragments from a Dornier Do17Z that crashed on Whitstable beach that afternoon. Claimed by three pilots, the only one I can remember without checking being “Taffy” Higginson who was himself shot down in the engagment, and belly-landed near Whitstable.

Adrian

Butch – a dud?

Hi James,
Don’t know for sure that Butch was in the plane that day but I do have a letter from Bob Doe that states clearly that Butch had more hours on Spits than most of the pilots on the Squadron! I will scan it and show it here if you want.
I also know that J J Booth of 600 Squadron regularly flew with his pet Monkey ‘Minnie’ during The Battle of Britain. In fact, when the monkey died he had it stuffed and presented to the Squadron. I have a press cutting somewhere about this.
There are several members of Pat Hughes family still in Australia who should be able to give you some stories regarding him.
Gerry.

I don’t know how much info he has, James, but Pat’s nephew Greg Hughes is in Australia and recently made a post on this forum.

Also some bits about him on the Battle of Britain Historical Society forum, too.

Andy

Pat Hughes??
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_Hughes_(aviator)

That’s a dud. Better refs on this very forum.

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=46960

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=47873

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=70989

Incidentally, I’m researching Pat’s history, particularly pre-war (and RAAF) and would like to hear from anyone with info, by PM is great. I published a selection of his photographs from his training at Point Cook, Victoria in Australia’s Flightpath magazine a while ago. These are from the RAAF Museum’s archive, and supported by his diary and some other papers are in the Australian War Memorial – which added some other details.

Gerry

Thats a very good point!

However, and although there are lots of tales of dogs flying in RAF aircraft during WW2 (and I am sure they did!) it does beg one question: what about oxygen? Unless dogs are able to breathe in more rarified air (are they?) then surely there was a problem, say, in high altitude ops? I have heard stories of dogs being taken on raids over Germany – but were they? As for fighter aircraft, maybe dogs were sometimes taken up for air tests, cross country flights etc but would they have been taken on fighter operations? Where would the dog be situated during the flight?? Also, it is likely to be flung around the aeroplane and seriously injured if not killed, surely? Certainly a hazard to itself and its pilot/master.

I’d like to think it happened, and I am sure it did – sometimes. However, I am not sure it was really very likely on fighter ops but stand to be corrected!

Butch??????????

But another question here is was his dog Butch with him at the time. I know the dog flew with him quite a bit and after Pat was lost on the 7th the dog was never seen again either.
By the way Shoreham aircraft Museum are unveiling a memorial to Pat on the 23rd of this month. Unfortunately I’m working so won’t be able to attend.
Gerry

Pat Hughes certainly collided with a Dornier 17, although I don’t think there is any evidence to suggest that it was a deliberate act. It may well have been, of course, but his death in that action makes it impossible, really, to establish what happened exactly.

Pat Hughes??
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_Hughes_(aviator)

Was MacKenzie the “mad ******” ? I had read that account years ago of his exploits but dont know of Percy?

Funny this should come up just after I’ve re-read the account by yourself Tangmere, in the BofB then & now, wasn’t it stated that no live ammunition was found among the wreckage of Percy Burtons Hurricane?

Lack of witnesses seems to be the main excu *ahem* reason for no other VC’s during the war for Fighter Command…
There are probably many many similar unrecorded acts of heroism that will never be known.