Spit Vs Dornier – 3.8.1942 Help- Andy? PeterA?

http://kelvinyoungs.com/Beyerer.html

Hi all,

Thanks Gerard the above is also of interest

ATB

TT

Black’s Combat Report

I have dug out my copies of the ORB and combat report.

Do you have all three pages of report?

Will send you copies of both ORB and Combat Report if you’re interested at no charge. Just let me know your mailing address, perhaps by private message.

You’ll note on combat report that F/O Lindsay Black, “… following bandit down, F/O Black saw it burning on the ground, and expose[d] some film on the wreckage.”

It is likely that this film footage has survived and is possibly with the Imperial War Museum. Let me know how you get on.

Gerard

Wow, well chaps, thanks to all of you for the info – its been a HUGE help and very much appreciated – will scour abe books for Gerards book (thanks for the info!) and Kev has very kindly sent me the combat report (thanks for the heads up G-ORDY) so we have oodles more gen to put on display. Dave has also sent me pics of the gen in the book – ta!

At present, we have the bomb beam from Beyerers Dornier on show together with one of the incendiary bombs dropped by the first aircraft in the raid, with the new artefacts – including ammo from the Dornier and one of the 20mm cases from Black’s Spifire in the engagement – and the combat report and extra info the story of Black will be much better told.

Thanks again all!

With best regards

Ben

Hi Gerard,

Thanks for that extra info. Your book on the Spitfire is excellent, a real treasure. I have found it useful in the past and will again in the future I’m sure.

Cheers
Dave

Lindsay Stuart Black

I can add more to the story.

“Monday 5 March 1945

[L.S. Black] took off as as one of three, taking over the lead when the section leader aborted the practice because of an unserviceable radio. Began the section’s first dive to 8000 feet at an angle of 59 degrees, but failed to recover and crashed on the beach at Mill Farm, West Beach, Selsey, bursting into flames on impact at 1135. The pilot is buried at Brookwood, Woking, Surrey. The Court of Inquiry was of the opinion that he pulled out too low and too quickly, and probably blacked out. Recovery should have been initiated at 4,000 feet but witnesses put the height at 1800-3000 feet.

NZ40961 Flt Lt Lindsay Stuart Black DFC, RNZAF – Age 30. A little over 1500 hrs solo (over 700 on Spitfires) at least 225 ops.”

The above is quoted from: FOR YOUR TOMORROW by Errol Martyn, Vol. 2, p.327

Nice to see my Spitfire book being quoted. I have 485’s ORBs and all the Squadron’s combat reports so will check other details tomorrow. Have to get them out of storage.

RIP Ray Sturtivant.

Gerard

Thanks Dave – any chance of a scan?

It would seem then, that unless there was another L Black at 485 during 1942, the chap the donor met in the 1970s couldnt have been the same guy, even though he knew all about the shoot down and sent a combat report, since he was KIA in 1945?

TT

does anyone have any pics of the dornier

philip

I got a chance to have a quick look in ‘Spitfire – The New Zealand Story’ by Gerard Morris today. Entries in the book conserning Black are as follows:

Page 135
Serial MK862
OU- TOC Date – 25/4/44
7/5/44 – F/Lt Lindsay S. (‘Lin’) Black whilst flying low cover for Operation Neptune encountered accurate flack. His starboard wing was severely damaged. To No. 421 Repair and Salvage Unit.

Page 138 has a squadron phto showing Lin Black

Page 139 has another squadron phto showing Lin Black

Page 195 (in section of all NZ Spitfire pilot air to air kills)
F/O L.S. Black 485 BM208/OU-S Do217

I didn’t see any other Blacks in the index. The Les Black in the back of my mind was probably in a different squadron. I think Lin is certainly your man.

Pm sent

thanks again all

TT

Ben.

According to Jefford’s RAF Squadrons, 485 moved to Kings Cliffe on the 8th July. From the 16th to the 22nd of August they were at West Malling before returning to Kings Cliffe where they remained till the 24th October.

Again, there is no mention of Docking so perhaps Docking was being used as a forward base by one or two sections either offering convoy protection or to try and catch raiders coming in from the East? The ORB for 485 would probably answer that question.

Can you PM me an email address please?

Regards,

kev35

As I mentioned, Les Black may be a confused memory – I’m just not sure. I’ll try to get to the library and check those books tomorrow that I recommended, unless someone here beats me to it.

Stuart, Kev, Gordy – many thanks -You chaps work one helluva lot faster than me! Who knew you could download combat reports nowadays – marvellous!

So they were based at Docking NOT Kings Cliffe then….

Be interesting to see if Dave can find out any more about Les Black…

Thanks again all

Ben

For the sake of £3.50 I had to do it didn’t I Ben?

Combat Report does state that the aircraft, Blue 1 and 2 (F/O Maskill and F/O Black) took off at 17.30 from Docking and were told to orbit Wittering. After the combat they landed at Wittering. Just shows how much it pays to check multiple sources. The combat report does identify Blue 2 as F/O L S Black. Now just need to try and isolate the Les Black Dave Homewood mentioned to find if it could have been him.

Regards,

kev35

Combat Report

I just did a search on the National Archives website and Flt Lt L S Black’s combat report for the day in question is available to download as a PDF for the princely sum of £3.50!

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/details-result.asp?Edoc_Id=7749511&queryType=1&resultcount=42

🙂

Stuart.

I understand that the aircraft failed to return on 4-4-43. My reference to 5-3-45 is to the date on which a Flt Lt L S Black was killed in a flying accident. Whether it’s the same man or not I’m sure someone else will be able to establish that.

regards,

kev35

Rawlings Fighter squadrons of the RAF puts the Squadron at Kings Cliffe from June to October 1942 with a period at West Malling in August 1942. No exact dates are given so I expect West Malling was a detachment? There is no mention of Docking.

Spitfire The History gives the following:

BM208 M46 37MU 8-3-42 485S 27-3 FAAC 16-12 ROS FTR ops 4-4-43 FH361.15 (Note: No mention of service with 303 Squadron.)

I can’t understand all of it and my eyes aren’t good enough today to trawl through for the abbreviations. It seems BM208 was with 485 Squadron from March 42. I’ll leave someone else to translate the rest.

Fighter Command Losses records BM208 as still being with 485 Squadron at the time of its loss on 4-4-43 when Sgt. H J Oxley failed to return from a Ramrod to Caen during which he had an engagement with an Fw190.

Hope this helps Ben.

Regards,

kev35

FAAC , flying accident catagory AC, ROS, repaired on site, FTR , failed to return (on ops) FH, flying hours (airframe).

FTR, 4/4/43, not 5/3/45.

Dave – thanks very much as ever – will keep my eyes peeled for the books – meantimes will report back on future research….but after the airshow! (tickets still available kids!)

In any event, F/L Black will have a more prominent note in the museum when we revamp the display – will see if we can find out more.

Many thanks all

Ben

I would recommend you look in the book ‘Spitfire: The New Zealand Story” by Gerard S. Morris which records combat information of all kills by NZ’ers in Spitfires. I don’t have a copy but I believe Mark12 does.

There are two books on No. 485 (NZ) Squadron too that might be worth a look, one by Kevin Wells and the other by Paul Sortehaug and Malcolm Laird.

I have a feeling there may have been a Les Black in that squadron but not certain, and may be confusing the issue there.

Lidsey Black did two tours, one with 501 Sqn and then the second with 485. He was a Flight Commander on the latter. His brother, RLS Black, served in the RNVR. Lindsey was buried in Brookwood Military Cemetery, Woking, Surrey.

There are no L.S. Black’s in the NZ phone directory by the way.

Hi Kev,

whizzed you a PM – you’ve done MORE than enough – we’re jolly grateful to you – we will do a bit more research but I agree with you 😉 and this extra information will mean that F/L Black (if tis he which seems likely) will be properly commemorated in the Museum. Earlier in the day of the raid, UntOffz Beyerer’s squadron member dropped a stick of bombs across Wellingborough killing 10 people, injuring many more and causing considerable damage to the town centre.

Beyerer saw the dust caused by the explosion and lined up for a second attack but was intercepted by F/L Black and P/O Maskill who had been vectored in by RAF Wittering following an ROC report about the first aeroplane. The Dornier increased speed over Wellingborough and jinked, but strangely in the panic did not drop its bombs, which of course would have made it faster and more manouverable. The aircraft was shot down near Finedon by F/L Black at low level. All the crew were killed.

The bomb load remained on board until 1976 when the aircraft was first legally ‘dug’, some were discovered and destroyed. Some unlicenced dig ‘cowboys’ tried again in 1995 even though bombs were known to be on board – which resulted in EOD being called out to deal with the remaining 250kg bombs.

Both digs were undertaken by other groups – not the museum.

The remains donated recently came from the FIRST dig!

In 2002, we helped the local Council erect a memorial plaque to those who lost their lives in the raid. Northamptonshires’ worst of the war.

To my chagrin, I always meant to research FL Black more, but other things in the museum ended up taking up my time (poor excuse I know) these new artefacts have given me the proverbial boot up the posterior.

By intercepting the Dornier when he did, there is no doubt that he ensured Wellingborough did not suffer another salvo of bombs that day which would have undoubtedly caused further casualties.

He certainly deserved a more detailled display and thanks to Kev I think we can do just that.

Cheers

Ben

Hi, Ben.

Mmmm. I see the predicament.

But two L S Black’s both from New Zealand, both with the RNZAF and 485 Squadron and both having claimed a Dornier 217?

Expect a copy combat report is your best bet.

Edited to add: Spoke to someone from DoRIS this afternoon and they said they do hold some copies of combat reports but nowhere near all and that ALL the originals were at the NA at Kew. He also said that the combat reports did not give the pilot’s Service Number and in some cases not even the name, the claim being attributed to their position in the section, ie, Green3. I’ll ask Dave Homewood to have a look at this as he might have some input.

Sorry I’ve not been able to help more.

Regards,

kev35

Regards,

kev35