Urban Myths : Buying Surplus Aircraft 1946

Very true Pim.

I agree with you Mondariz,

To put it in myth busters words :

Plausible, highly unlikely but still plausible,

greetings,

Pim Pouw

Fokker G1 replica
www.fokker-g1.nl

A final note:

It would take about 15% fuel in the tanks (using your numbers), to make the 184752.27 Gallon needed to cover the purchase.

Personally I don’t find that unlikely, but we would need to know more about the operational fueling policies, to find out how much they would use for such ferry flights.

Unless you can prove, that there was no possible way, that those 475 aircraft could contain 184752.27 Gallon of fuel, your calculation will remain a pet theory, which in essence is no more than the myth you are trying to dispell.

I don’t care if Mantz, or anyone else, made their money back in fuel, but its not impossible and the story says some did.

Strike three ………………..out 😀

Searcy Field, Stillwater, Oklahoma

Mondariz , any guess were it is located in the USA ?

Try this, in the smack middle……………1000 Naut.Miles from the East and West coast. Flying directly from a pacific base ????

A good guess is better than a false assumption……………..

Let’s take a B17 bomber, it cruises at aprox. 160 Knots. Within 250 Naut.Miles you have both states Oklahoma and Kansas covered. That is in flying time : 1 hour 35 minutes.

Then go to :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma_World_War_II_Army_Airfields

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kansas_World_War_II_Army_Airfields

You will find 23 military airbases in WWII 😎

Then look at the list of aircraft Paul Mantz bought. A lot of aircraft start with a T, that is T from Trainer. Then ask yourself what were all those airfields for in the smack middle , perhaps Training ? 😉

All this together also explaines the very low price which was paid for the aircraft. Whoever wants to buy abused trainer aircraft in the middle of the USA ?

Pim Pouw

Fokker G1 replica
www.fokker-g1.nl

How can you dispell a myth by guesses?

You are guessing they had ½ hour extra fuel, even if most aircraft were flown directly from their pacific bases. You have absolutly no base for that ½ hour estimate, other than what pilots “normally do”.

I’m not saying you are completely wrong, just that your numbers are based on guesses.

All we can assume, is that the tanks were less than full. Extra fuel would normally be calculated according to an alternative airfield. Which in 1945 could have been more than 45 minutes flight away.

We are looking at 184752.27 Gallon to make it pay. Which i admit seems quite a squirt.

According to your calculations, that could be 2 1/4 hours flight in each aircraft. Although that might be possible even with fairly empty tanks on the bombers.

One thing is sure, thet US did not hire people to prepare the aicraft for sale. They were flown to Walnut ridge, Kingman airflield and other places purely to be sold ASAP.

I still belive its quite possible, that they could have contained 184752.27 Gallon.

Oke let’s have a realistic look at the Paul Mantz’s purchase of 475 aircraft.

475 aircraft consisting of 134 fighters, 36 medium bombers, 305 heavy bombers.

These aircraft were flown to a civil airfield “Searcy Field”. Normally when you do a cross country flight you take a half an hour of extra fuel for safety matters. Now think positive and suppose the average fuel left in these aircraft was for 45 minutes.

134 Fighters X 45 min X 65 Gallon per hour = 6532 Gallon
36 M.Bombers X 45 min X 100 Gallon per Hour = 2700 Gallon
305 H.Bombers X 45 min X 200 Gallon per hour = 45750 Gallon

Total fuel = aprox 55000 Gallon = $ 16500 😎

But still not even close to $55425.68 😡

Like before I have heard this myths in connection with a lot of scrap aircraft.
I think Paul Mantz came the closest of fulfilling this myth.

Would be nice what was paid for a scrap B52, anyone ??

The car fuel price source see : http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/facts/2005/fcvt_fotw364.html

Pim Pouw

Fokker G1 replica project
www.fokker-g1.nl

Fuel is fuel.

Its illegal to use such fuel for aviation, but not for other types of engines, or heaters.

Post WWII nobody had any fuel, so selling slightly “used” fuel would be no problem.

What about all the nasty microorganism growths you get in fuel tanks? Surely you wouldn’t want to transfer them to any other vehicle? It’s why, when you have to de-fuel an aircraft, that you can’t put the fuel in another one. Only options are to dispose of it or to put it back in the same aircraft. I guess any naive punter who bought the fuel would have found it out to their cost later on.

The Paul Mantz story is more than a myth.

It might be an open question, if he made his money back on fuel alone, but he did make his money back — and then some.

The price listed above, are the price for single aircraft. Mantz bought 475 at the price of $55,425.68. Which is an avarage of $116.68 per aircraft.

Look at the fuel calculation again and the figures might add up, even if the tanks were not full.

(BTW those are dream fuel prices…imagine filling a B-17 for just over $1000…..great times!)

Will see if i can find a list but out at Oakey Spits,kitties and boomerangs were going for about 12 quid each,less wheels guns,oil tanks and clocks.

The story behind this comes from Paul Mantz’s purchase of 475 surplus aircraft for $55,425.68.
For those of you who have never heard it, story goes that he made back his purchase price in fuel still aboard the aircraft.
The story has been told for years, originally by Mantz himself. As you can read, he bought a huge lot of aircraft by a single bid. He didn’t pay the typical per plane price given in your figures.

You can read the contract here on author Scott Thompson’s excellent website that has a great deal of information on Mantz.

http://www.aerovintage.com/mantz_rfc.pdf

Two items I’d like to point out…
1. I think it’s safe to assume aircraft ferried to boneyards did not have drop tanks. Nor would their internal fuel tanks be full, after all they were flown in. Let’s also assume that no one would hav ebeen silly enough to top off an airplane that is waiting to be sold or scrapped.

2. Remember, the purchaser would still have value in the aircraft either selling it as a flying airplane..or as scrap….or parts so there was money to be made above any left over fuel.

I don’t know what the retail price per gallon for high octane AVGAS was in 46-48. I’d bet more than 30 cents…that’s about what auto gas was going for.

And lest we get too sentimental, recall that in 1946 $12,000 was a huge amount of money. You could buy several cars for that or a very nice house.
So a B-17 that you couldn’t afford to fuel or fly wasn’t much or a bargan.