Canberra Pic.

Bassingbourn Canberra

Best I can do is WE122 or WE137 – both came to us via W. A. Walker which Vince Hemmings and myself used in Airfield Focus 2 Bassinbourn Revisted

Graham Simons

Thank you dave 63 ??
I was on the ocu 72 -77 (rigger) so know a little about canberra traits but always nice to get a professional view on things.
Had a T bird ride with dusty ‘M’ circa 74 ,lovely a/c to fly in and I work with ‘CT’ on Hawks sometimes these days in wilts 😀

cheers baz

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Interior of WK163 showing pilots panel, throttle box to the left, green and red cocks with relight buttons under handles, undercarriage buttons tagged with red clip and plate.

Thanks for that, that stops that urban myth in its tracks.
The RAF museum contacted me today and said they have found some information and will post it today. All I need now is the time to look at all of this stuff.

One source has told me that many of the B.2’s crashed just before landing as the engine cut off was next to the undercarridge control and the pilots would accidently press the wrong crontrol. I have not checked how acurate this information is.[/QUOTE]

The undercarriage selector is mounted to the left of the flying panel on a seperate panel almost level with the control column and clearly visable, it is a twin push selector button, the engine fuel cocks are mounted to the left on a fuselage mounted panel and below the pilots left forearm, they consist of two pairs of levers which are large and very distinctive even in the dark so can not possibly be mistaken. The only engine buttons mounted on the throttle box are the ignitor switches (crackers) which do not stop the engines, in fact the opposite is true.

One source has told me that many of the B.2’s crashed just before landing as the engine cut off was next to the undercarridge control and the pilots would accidently press the wrong crontrol. I have not checked how acurate this information is.

I have not heard of this as a cause of any B2 Canberra crashes,the a/c had a separate HP (high pressure) fuel cok lever and throttle lever which meant that sometimes senior officers who were not very current used to try starting the engine with the fuel lever closed (red face 😀 ) …dont worry sir ! I will change the starter cartridge :rolleyes: !! However we never stop learning and scorpion 63 would be able to confirm/deny this.
Many canberra accidents were caused by assymetric engine thrust related accidents,some happened by loss of control while turning finals to land,some during single engine overshoot (er sorry… go around in modern parlance:rolleyes: ) at a certain date(mid 70’s ?) all solo assymetric training was stopped due to the high accident rate.
This really was the canberra achilles heel,because the engines were mounted quite a way outboard of the fuselage if the a/c was allowed to yaw/roll past a certain angle then the rudder did not have enough authority to regain control.
Another variation would be throttling too far back on a normal (2 engine ) approach,getting low/slow ,applying power to both but the engines ‘spooling up’ at different rates -resulting yaw /roll could be (and was)fatal/very serious.

cheers baz

I have now seen the full report, there are no pictures of the aircraft and it looks like the pilot was removed from flying Canberras also there was a set of design changes asked for in the Canberra controls. It will take me a few days to digest the full report but I think the crux of it was that there was no mechnical falure and that no one party was fully to blame. Ironically this incident may have saved other crew. It would be interesting to know if the later designs were prone to these kind of incident. One source has told me that many of the B.2’s crashed just before landing as the engine cut off was next to the undercarridge control and the pilots would accidently press the wrong crontrol. I have not checked how acurate this information is.

I have now read parts of the Air Incident report which has two interesting points: The first is they are desperately trying to say that the pilot only just passed night flying and was only just suitable to do this. The next in the conclusions that this was the 7th fatal accident at night in a Canberra B2 since December 1952 to not be caused by mechanical failure. It also looks like they were intrested in the oxygen supply but nothing substantial.

D

Blast. I hate repeating things … there was nothing there a moment ago… I must try three finger typing!

The Times archive for this event has a report of the inquest held in January.

The Pilot stated that he was barely able to operate the lever to eject. The coroner concluded that the other crew were unable to do so because of the
steep descent and G forces . There seems to be no further court of inquiry, and no blame for the pilot

“RAF commission terminated”……. Google that and you get a pdf document that mentions “Was your Commission terminated for misconduct”.
It may help in working through the levels of military judiciary at that time.
Looking at Courts Martial reports in the Times over the years , most seem to involve “doubtfull behaviour” or dodgy mess cheques.

Sorry no pictures, but maybe those massed squadron snaps in pathe etc might show an image. A magnifying glass might help.

Ah finally got more info the coroners report was printed in the times:
13th Jan 1955 here is a summary:

Verdicts of Accidental Death were recorded by the Coroner, Mr. E. A. Williams, at an inquest in Hertford yesterday on Pilot Officer Raymond H. Sholl, of Livingstone Road, Thornton Heath. Surrey, and Flying Officer Hubert E. Thorne, of Woodlands, Wimborne, Dorset.

FO C. B. Crombie, of Hendon. giving evidence, said that the crash occurred half-an-hour after the take-off from Bassingbourn, Cambridgeshire. They had reached a height of 32,0O9ft. “There was tremendous turbulence, The aircraft went out of my control, performed various manoeuvres and in the end went into a dive, turning left, from which I was unable to recover. The aircraft had been difficult to control because of the bad weather”. He complained that the navigators “got on their backs.” because of the bad turbulence, eventually he ordered them to abandon the aircraft.
Crombie told the court that because of the extreame G he couldnt grab the release and as his hand was pushed up he pulled the ejecting mechanism. The others were trapped by the G forces which the coroner accepted. FO Crombie landed in Star street in Ware about 2 miles away from the crash site. He had burns on his face and a fractured arm.

I think you are being a little unfair here Resmoroh. I have always appreciated the quality and content of your postings, but this thread is not yours and therefore you have hijacked or skewed it. You have a legitimate question which maybe deserves its own thread?:)

I asked for information with regard to personnel on this thread. Error of judgement. Too difficult for you.
If I’d asked whether the flange brackets on the Canberra were Mk 3’s – or 4a’s, or whether the floggle-toggle was installed by E-E at Preston, or by some other technical organisation, then I would have had 50 responses inside 12 hours. But not so!
I see where the priorities on this Forum actually lie. Hardware – forget the drivers/pax, although one can see that weasel words are used with regard to personnel involved in prangs. I don’t expect to win ’em all – but I do expect a fair hearing!!
Resmoroh

Quick update,
from talking to some of the locals the aircraft circled around the area a few times before it crashed. Once it went down it left debris across a wide area. Looking at the situation as there was only one ejector seat it would be disturbing to know that you could eject leaving the rest of your crew go down with the aircraft. If it had circled around a few times there must of been some discussion between the flight crew.

WE119 Pilot

The Pilot was (4080189) Fg Off Carol Bonaventure Crombie
Cadet Pilot wef 27 Feb 52 (Seniority wef 26 Sep 51
A/Plt Off to Plt Off 5 Dec 52.
Plt Off to Fg Off 26 Dec 53.
Commission “Terminated” 23 Jun 55 (i.e. 6 months after the incident!).
Does anyone know precisely what is meant by “Terminated” in LG Speak, or Air Ministry/MoD Speak.
One can normally “Resign”, or “Relinquish” a Commission. I take it that Relinquish is purely voluntary on the part of the individual. Resign – and there may have been some “pressure” applied from On High. Terminated seems to me to be for reasons which fall short of Summaries of Evidence leading to a Court Martial.
But does anybody actually know? This is not the first time I’ve come across Terminated when researching individuals (both aircrew and ground Branches).
HTH
Resmoroh

I am also interested in this aircraft as it “landed” in my back garden the only picture I can find so far is the small part that can still be seen in the church http://www.wareonline.co.uk/news/article.asp?id=79

I have also tried to find out why it happened and what happen to the pilot who escaped my research is currenlty early days …

Dg

‘Cannot find a photo, but not all crew were killed’ Sorry for getting that wrong.

Cannot find a photo, but not all crew were killed.

Monday, 20th December 1954
approx 19:15-19:30hrs
RAF Canberra Mk.B2 WE119 Bassingbourn crashed out of control in steep spiral nearat St Margaretsbury, Herts just North of Hoddesdon, F/O C. B. Crombie, ejected at 10,000ft., over 500kts. First ejection through the canopy of RAF Canberra. Martin-Baker Mk.1C manual
Other crew did not eject and were killed

the aircraft was lost along with its crew in December 1954. Hopefully someone got a photo in the previous two years.