Is This An Airfield Building?

Fantastic picture, trouble is, you can’t see their knees. I presume Mr Tuck is wearing the white scarf.

Compare with this photo of No. 257 Sqn (w/Bob Stanford-Tuck) at Coltishall.

If you look at Debden school on Google Earth, it’s on the south side of the village centre, ie the back of the Victorian building faces south, which is where you would expect the class to be assembled and photographed. It doesn’t look likely to me that a wacking great structure like this would be put up in the school grounds, most Victorian schools were strapped for space anyway. I know that there is farmland behind, but in order to get the kids facing the sun they would have to do a right circumnavigation which is unlikely.
The school does have a website and a history page, they might be able to provide further information.
I had another thought, RAF Debden has been more or less continously occupied since it was built, looking at the clothes and comparing it to my school pictures, I reckon it could be the mid 50’s.
I presume that RAF personell were living on the base then, and if you drive past Carver Barracks, as it’s known now, the houses date from the early 50’s, perhaps this was some sort of temporary accomodation, rough it may be, while a proper school was built within the site, there is a childcare centre only on the site now, but maybe this is in the original school building.
I wouldn’t be surprised that while a school on base was being established in the 50’s, that temporary staff were brought in from surrounding schools to work part time in order to get the system settled.
Just a thought.

Dunno why, but the thought popped into my head that maybe it’s a train shed and not a hanger.

I’ve been scratching my head over this one for ages, I work amongst WWII ‘C’, ‘E’, & ‘J’ hangars and they are definatly not constructed like that!
Even though the doors have rivets and steel lapping sheets, they are not that large and crude. As mentioned they also dont have lower sets of windows.
As an aside, hangars of that period have windows placed higher up to eleviate blast damage if a bomb came through the roof, the windows blowing out before the walls and steel girders will.

I was even wondering if it could be a theatrical background – unlikely though.

Best bet is to publish it in local papers with an appeal.

It’s not fake windows!

Just an idea folks –

I don’t think the upper windows are fake windows at all, they look like water tanks, and the welded seams just happen to be approximately same size as the windows below. There is a shadow from the ribs of the tank on the upper right hand ‘window’

The lower windows appear to be painted out – perhaps for blackout conditions in war time?

Regards,
Scotty

Well, power wouldn’t have been a problem for moving them – think steam! However, size might have made it hard work.

I agree with those who think the talk of hangars is a diversion, – I’ve been up close to the doors at Bicester which are of a similar date (IIRC), and they don’t look that much like that. Theirs, I think, were ballasted with sand – and there were several tons of sand in each door!

And why put decoy windows on a hangar? You’ll spot the hangar long before you spot the windows!

Debden school building is here: http://www.debden.essex.sch.uk/home.htm
Again, I’m not familiar with the things, but I would have thought at the time that any temporary building to replace bomb damage would have been something readily available – think Nissen hut, or Maycrete – wouldn’t it?

If it is Debden school, and that may be a big if, the kids are visiting somewhere.

Adrian

The windows don’t have to be decoys, they could have been put in for a purpose. They don’t even have to be rivets in the picture they could be bolts, the hangar doors at Watton had sheets that were bolted and joined in a very similar fashion to the picture. Also I think that you will find that there were concerns of the weight of the hangar doors with all the sand/gravel in that it was taken out in around 1950 I believe. It’s not hard to work out that the doors were built up on site due to their size.

And the top windows I would say have the sky reflecting in them so that is why they look like they do. One thing is for sure that certainly isn’t a school building.

Well, power wouldn’t have been a problem for moving them – think steam! However, size might have made it hard work.

I agree with those who think the talk of hangars is a diversion, – I’ve been up close to the doors at Bicester which are of a similar date (IIRC), and they don’t look that much like that. Theirs, I think, were ballasted with sand – and there were several tons of sand in each door!

And why put decoy windows on a hangar? You’ll spot the hangar long before you spot the windows!

Debden school building is here: http://www.debden.essex.sch.uk/home.htm
Again, I’m not familiar with the things, but I would have thought at the time that any temporary building to replace bomb damage would have been something readily available – think Nissen hut, or Maycrete – wouldn’t it?

If it is Debden school, and that may be a big if, the kids are visiting somewhere.

Adrian

Yes, I noticed the joggle too but I took that to mean that it was heavy plate (1/4 – 1/2 inch) but this throws up another problem in that the only picture I could find of a Type-C hangar door clearly shows that the plates were not joggled.

However the rapid expansion of the RAF meant building hundreds of Type-C hangars so there must have been many construction firms involved so I would expect a fair bit of variation in the door detail.

The hangar doors must have been made on site surely, could something that big have been moved by road in the 1930s?

Incidentally the last Type-C hangar at Debden (Carver Barracks) was demolished in 2003.

If the upper windows are painted on, why not the lower ones? at ground height the painted ones would fool no one, and from the air, they would look the same; the horizontal joins look as though they are joggled (swaged), that wouldn’t be possible, with heavy plate.

I’ve just dismantled an old trailer, from late ’40’s, early ’50’s, it is wood and steel construction, the wood is rivetted to the steel, even the roping hooks are rivetted onto the wooden sides, (I’ve never seen that before, you’d think the action of rivetting would split the wood).

Interesting (no really :o) report about the 200 (!) remaining Type-C hangars on MOD property (and their locations).

http://www.defence-estates.mod.uk/publications/dmg/dmg_24.pdf

If the structure in the photo is such a door this is what you would have to cut doors / windows through!

There are six sliding and overlapping steel doors at each end of a typical Type-C Hangar. The doors run on cast iron wheels in tracks set into a reinforced concrete footing

Each door measures approximately 10.7m high by 8 metres wide and weighs in the order of 12.5 Tonnes. They comprise a series of 10” x 3” channels and 10” x 4 1/2” RSJ’s (grammar! :rolleyes:), which are externally sheeted in steel plate of varying thickness as follows: 1/4” plate up to 6m high and 1/8″ plate above. Originally, windows were fitted above 8.4m height, but these have frequently been replaced with steel plates. Internally the doors are sheeted in 1/2 ” steel plate but only up to 6m height. Doors have sometimes been filled with gravel as blast protection.

In the original design it is apparent that the steel sheeting on both the front and the rear faces on the door frames, are an integral part of the door structure. The steel plates provide strength and stability to the door frame members, and in the case of the lower diagonal bracing members, act as the gusset connection plates.

Looking again is there two sets of fake “upstairs windows”, I hadn’t noticed that there appears to be a set above the door, alligned with the right hand edge of the door frame.
I had sort of taken the door to be the left hand edge of the building.

Hmmmmm……….very intriguing.

I’d say it’s definately not a hanger door…and maybe not even an airfield building I suspect.

Not ever seen a rivited steel plate clad, steel framed multi-story building like that.:confused:

I’m thinking quick erect, temporary structure after bomb damage…was the school hit by a bomb destined for the airfield at any time..?

If you look at the ground behind the kids, there’s a distinct difference in the ground surface, almost like a path running alongside.

…I can see that the lower left window is glazed, as I can see the reflections in it…..as for the rivetting, this was done on comparatively thin material, as a cheaper alternative to welding.

Yes, the left hand window is glazed (and open) giving a good reflection but wouldn’t it do that even if it was ‘stuck on’ the front of a steel hangar door? And what do you make of the painted-on second storey ‘windows’?

I can’t imagine what type of building would be constructed of bolted / riveted (or welded) steel plate (over a steel frame) unless it was intended to resist great force at some stage; water tanks, lock gates or the blast doors on a Type-C hangar, yes, but classrooms, offices or housing, I doubt it. Could surplus hangars have been converted to other uses?

Personally I still think it is elaborate camouflage…most probably at Debden.

Well, I’ve had fun reading the replies so far.:D I’ll be raising a glass in memory of the tragic loss of Ethel Gastrum tonight, as well as to Humph. God bless ’em both!

I’ve also popped over to the Airfield Information Exchange and linked a thread to here. who knows, we might find out yet…

Thanks,

Adrian

I’m not quite as sceptical as the rest of you, I can see that the lower left window is glazed, as I can see the reflections in it , I imagine the rest are glazed, but boarded up from the inside; as for the rivetting, this was done on comparatively thin material, as a cheaper alternative to welding.

Incidently I was a dinner monitor…. quite surprising ,given my life long hatred of authority!

Armoured School Canteen No.3 (ASC3), designed to withstand most forms of educational catering, up to and including Spam Fritters. Note the lack of ventilation, hence the smiles on the children’s faces. The photograph was probably taken after dinner: note the relief on their little faces.

The Mk3 was built in large numbers on many school sites across the North of England. The only drawback was the inability to keep the smell in. In 1956 a dinner lady was killed when a Tapioca Pudding reached critical temperature and exploded. Mrs Ethel Gastrum died from 80% burns. But the building withstood the blast and no doubt saved the lives of those children playing outside.

Taken from my eBook: School dinners were a memorable experience not to be forgotten. No matter what was on the menu, the odour of spam fritters always drifted across most of Driffield. The dining hall was a elongated brick-built hut, filled with eight-sided tables. On each was placed a metallic coloured aluminium water jug and enough plates, cutlery and drinking cups for all. Unlike modern times the food was brought to each table – enough for everyone – JUST! On each table a pupil was chosen to share out what we were about to be made truly grateful – “amen”.

I’ve just literally driven through Debden village, I wish I’d seen this photo first.
By the looks of it it’s within school grounds, typical school chairs of the period, I remember them well. I can’t imagine them taking such a formal picture on a visit to the base. With the number of related buildings scattered around the airfield at Debden, it could have been something erected on or adjacent to, school land and subsequently demolished. It was obviously a place where they needed the light behind the camera and no reflections.
I hope you like our Braintree manufactured Crittall steel windows by the way, every home should have one.

And as for the people in it,it could be an excellent subject of ‘Where are they now?’

Ken.

The middle and right windows look like frames plonked, for want of a better word, on the wall… the left one looks genuine as does the door…..
couldn’t be Northolt could it? The hangars there were elaborately camouflaged.