Spitfire /Mustang overkill?-Another Can Of Worms???

If I should point my finger at anything, its the museums who are unable to take proper care of their exhibits (thankfully most do a good job). Seeing a static aircraft decline is not something we should be exposed to.

It a form of murder 😀 :diablo:

And i fear there are one or two museums who have bitten off more than what they can chew
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Eventually even the BBMF Lancaster will become static too. There is a certain lifespan on an airframe and even with the best of maintenance, it will not remain safe forever.

Hopefully there are plenty of years left in PA474.

As for the flying vs static debate, I strongly belive in a large pool of static aircraft. From a historic perspective a rebuild is not of the same value. There will always be deviations from the original recipe. Different rivets, a slightly different alloy, parts from a later/earlier model, or some other diviation.

I think its very important, that we have “true” examples of historic aircraft in a safe environment (or as true as possible). Once the building craft has dissapeared (sometime in the future) historians will be able to research an original and learn how it was built.

Its great that there are people out there, who will spend a lot of money getting historic aircraft airworthy, but its even greater that RAF (who don’t owe anybody anything) are able to restore and display such a large number of aircraft.

If I should point my finger at anything, its the museums who are unable to take proper care of their exhibits (thankfully most do a good job). Seeing a static aircraft decline is not something we should be exposed to.

… its not the only Gustav in the world-and the RAF have no plans to ground their equally priceless Lancaster as far as i’m aware

thats a very good point there

Luckily for me and plenty of other aircraft engineers flying aircraft rot as quickly if not more than static ones! The RAF viewed the Gustav as a museum piece – the entirely logical place for it was the RAF museum .
There are Buchon’s flying in Europe flying with DB engines – are you really suggesting flying a priceless aircraft which you cannot replace in the form of ‘Black 6’ when there are aircraft in the form of the Buchon which are readily available .

– Of course flying aircraft rot the same way as static ones, but the point is they HAVE to be given more TLC when they fly, you must know that!- until quite recently there were no Buchons in (England-where i live!) of course i would prefer Black 6 to be flying-the team that looked after her wanted her to fly until spares became a problem- i just agree with them! and, whilst rare, its not the only Gustav in the world-and the RAF have no plans to ground their equally priceless Lancaster as far as i’m aware

Luckily for me and plenty of other aircraft engineers flying aircraft rot as quickly if not more than static ones! The RAF viewed the Gustav as a museum piece – the entirely logical place for it was the RAF museum .
There are Buchon’s flying in Europe flying with DB engines – are you really suggesting flying a priceless aircraft which you cannot replace in the form of ‘Black 6’ when there are aircraft in the form of the Buchon which are readily available .

There is absolutely no reason to believe that the Gustav is rotting from the inside out. The atmosphere is more closely controlled at Hendon then it is at most airfield hangars. The aircraft was crashed – it was due to be retired and had been extended. The RAF had no long term plan to fly her and why should they . Whilst the sound of the DB engine might have been wonderful – is it any less wonderful than one of the modified Buchon engined hybrids from Europe? Simply put why risk the only example you have of a Gustav?

It may be closely controlled but when an aircraft is flying it HAS to be well looked after because of the risk to life and limb-and the agreement with the RAFM was more to do with the ego of the RAFM museum head than any other reason – as for Buchons they sound ok but they look ugly compared to a DB engined ‘109 and should not be in Luftwaffe markings, anyway!

What exactly is the shame ? We are probably the only country in the world that has maintained aircraft in the form of a historic flight for such a long time. Coupled with that the RAF let the Gustav rebuild go ahead – I cannot think of many other countries where that would happen. The aircraft was allowed to exceed it’s permitted flying period. Near the end of that it had the unfortunate incident which very nearly ended in tragedy. Now if you view the number of 109’s/Buchons that have been operated in private hands and examine the accident rate for them it makes grim reading . What would your opinion be if she had been restored to fly again and lost in another accident ?

david perhaps graveyard was the wrong word. i mean it in a sense that when compared to cosford, where the aircraft still smell like aircraft and it seems are still “alive” ive been to hendon several times, and each time i go they no longer seem to be alive, there is no, what my father likes to call “Machine spirit” dont get me wrong they are all beauitiful and many of them unique aircraft, but im sure others agree with what ive said.

Ben

There is absolutely no reason to believe that the Gustav is rotting from the inside out. The atmosphere is more closely controlled at Hendon then it is at most airfield hangars. The aircraft was crashed – it was due to be retired and had been extended. The RAF had no long term plan to fly her and why should they . Whilst the sound of the DB engine might have been wonderful – is it any less wonderful than one of the modified Buchon engined hybrids from Europe? Simply put why risk the only example you have of a Gustav?

Its a shame that a perfecrtly airworthy Aircraft was grounded to join a museum that already had an Aircraft of the same type!- I thought it sounded wonderful!- and i would rather they risk flying aircraft (which, after all is what they are designed to do) than have them sit lifeless in a museum possibly rotting from the inside out!

What exactly is the shame ? We are probably the only country in the world that has maintained aircraft in the form of a historic flight for such a long time. Coupled with that the RAF let the Gustav rebuild go ahead – I cannot think of many other countries where that would happen. The aircraft was allowed to exceed it’s permitted flying period. Near the end of that it had the unfortunate incident which very nearly ended in tragedy. Now if you view the number of 109’s/Buchons that have been operated in private hands and examine the accident rate for them it makes grim reading . What would your opinion be if she had been restored to fly again and lost in another accident ?

She is CAPABLE of flying though- she was repaired by the original team- and thats the crying shame!!!

Hendon isn’t a graveyard. I took a party of young people there recently and they all enjoyed it . Would it be better if they sold off all the aircraft so they could go into the hands of private collectors – some to be seen again, some not. Getting to the ‘Black 6’ issue – she isn’t airworthy as she didn’t fly post the crash. She was due to be grounded and had exceeded the length of time she was due to be flying.

It was restored to flying condition after AVM Allison’s unfortunate finger trouble with the Radiatoir flap switch though!

so she could still fly???!!!! it breaks my heart to see an aircraft that could and should fly, stuck in a graveyard like hendon

I really cannot understand why anyone thinks there are too many? If you were talking of a thousand then you really would not say rare. But 150 or 100 is rare and situations change quickly for factors which affect the numbers able to fly.
Some current vintage flyers may not fly often and some which never appear at public events are not fully insured due to the costs involved.

The current scene is healthy but at times fragile, I am just pleased that projects are still underway.

Whilst Black 6 was destined to be placed in the RAFM, the small matter of her coming to rest upside-down in a field by the M11 had some contribution to her current status.

It was restored to flying condition after AVM Allison’s unfortunate finger trouble with the Radiatoir flap switch though!

Ok back on topic. Are there too many A6/Harvard/SNJ etc or Tiger Moths?

😉
Cees

Yes and no

there a loads of tigermoths and harvards but u see little of them at airshows, thats the difference i think.

You will always see 3-5 spits and mustangs, harvards 1 or 2, tiger moths well you dont see any to be honest

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Perhaps another thread is in order:

Restore to static or restore to fly:rolleyes:

Just to steer slightly off topic. It annoys me (yes, I know, deep breath etc etc 😉 ) that every time a project is announced the general opinion is: will she fly? Mostly by people who are not involved in the aviation community. There’s nothing wrong with that but static aircraft deserve a place too. Hendon always gets slagged off but remember their collection is first class, and their funds are limited (especially since they had to be open for free). Even if an extinct type is found people will scream: will she fly? And risking to lose it in a crash? Overkill or not, as long as there is movement within the community everyone benefits from it in the end. But some types will be better represented after all, wheter you like it or not. it’s all about money.

Just my opinion of course

Ok back on topic. Are there too many A6/Harvard/SNJ etc or Tiger Moths?

😉
Cees

Whilst Black 6 was destined to be placed in the RAFM, the small matter of her coming to rest upside-down in a field by the M11 had some contribution to her current status.

i know one of the really rare things about her is her original engine, is that engine in her now?

and to see black six there knowing full well that she could have easily flown again!!! its the only aviation museum i dislike, sorry to say 🙁 id heard about the DX p47 isnt she going to be restored to fly?

– i stopped going there after they got Black 6!- they already had an Emil so why they had to ground her i don’t know

There is a P-47 at Duxford [in bits] the photo was taken Dec last year anyone knows what is happening to it.
Simon

Fuselage is under restoration in America, due back soon I believe.