Qualifications in aircraft restoration

This is an issue that has been greatly debated in the classic aircraft community, not only by museums but aircraft operators as well. It is best to divide into two distinct sections, those that want to restore an aircraft to STATIC museum quality, and those that want to restore an aircraft to LIVE airworthy trim.

I will deal with the former first: There are organizations that run courses on the restoration of aircraft to museum quality and I believe they have already been mentioned several times in this thread. but quite frankly as long as you are enthusiastic, willing to commit your time (and occasionally money) and suffer the incessant nagging you will receive, when you have spent the entire weekend up to your elbows in the corroding mass that you are trying to restore to it’s former glory, instead of cutting the grass or taken the mother-in-law out to the local shopping village, then the only limiting factor is how authentic you want things to be.

And now the Latter: Here things become complicated. Unless you have proven experience of aircraft work (i.e. an apprenticeship) the CAA will not grant permission for you to work on aircraft by yourself. There are occasions where the CAA will grant permission for people with some engineering experience (i.e. car mechanics etc) to work on live or restoration to fly aircraft so long as their work is inspected and signed off by a Licensed Aircraft Engineer, preferably with a rating on that aircraft type, at every stage of work. If you are a time served apprentice you are able to work on an aircraft, until it becomes necessary to perform duplicate checks at which point a licensed Aircraft Engineer is required.
This section can also be divided in to several sections. These are, permit to fly aircraft (typically ex-military aircraft), Special C of A aircraft (aircraft capable of carrying passengers but not on a fare paying basis) and full C of A aircraft (aircraft that are either charter or part of an airline to carry passengers). This again brings varying degrees of operational requirements from the CAA and qualification requirements.
Over the years several companies have offered apprenticeship schemes, Air Atlantique, Jet Heritage and De Havilland Aviation to name a few. Of these only Air Atlantique has actively pursued the recruitment of candidates but unfortunately this has since ended. Some companies and collections have at one time or another offered cross training on other aircraft type i.e. if you had solely jet experience you could normally find an organization or individual who would be willing to train you in piston engines or fabric repairs.
Unfortunately now, the classic aircraft industry is in decline. The skills base that was around 10 years ago no longer exists and there are ever diminishing numbers of people interested in joining the community. Those that do find themselves in an industry that is woefully underpaid, where training is non-existent and where officialdom does everything in it’s power to get rid of them.
To all young people reading this I have this to say as terrible as it maybe. I am your age, I have been in this industry now for nearly 5 years. during that time I have gained valuable experience from some truly wonderful people and I have throughly enjoyed myself. BUT, I have incurred massive debts, the wage I am paid can’t support myself or my family and I am apparently in the top end of the pay scale for the industry. This is not a sector that offers great potential for career prospects unless you are able to provide the finances to gain your licenses. I am now seriously considering my position in the industry not only because of the pay but also future training, career prospects and the ever present specter that the next CAA regulation (in cahoots with the EU) will finish the industry.
The maintenance of classic aircraft is becoming the domain of the retired, soon to be retired and the rich. This is a state of affairs that will not be able to sustain it self for very much longer, as the remaining skilled people either move on to better paid jobs or move off this mortal coil. I personally bitterly resent having to move out of the industry for the reasons I have given, as I dearly love the work I do and the people I work with. There are very few industries that have the camaraderie and pleasure of coming to work that this does, but unless something changes the industry will die on it’s feet.
In short you are best starting your career in the commercial world with people like Marshalls, Serco, Fleetlands or an airline and moving to classic aircraft when you have a good 20 years experience under your belt.

Right, im 16 and im taking my gcse’s. i have also been given the opertunity to take enginering at college and i have gained NVQ L1 and i am workig on level 2

i help out at hangar 11 and i would like to go into aircarft engineering, should i say on and do level 3 e.t.c or move onto aircraft engineering in particular? and where can i do this at a place thats local to where i live (west essex)?

Thanks

or to keep it fairly local see if you can an apprentiship at marshalls in cambridge.
you spent a few months ‘hacking and bashing’ ,then you have 3 years on the shop floor with day release to college (in bedford), and come out of it with a nice shiny set of qualifications.
there’s a lot of work on old Hercs there, so naturally this means a lot of structural work, not to mention a lot of systems work when you stick the things back together again. they do a lot of modifications there as well, so you’ll soon get to know your way around a set of drawings.

i know the aircraft are a little more modern than WWII stuff, but you’d get experience in deep stip of the aircraft (wings,fin,tailplane,cargo doors etc all frequently come off the aircraft), so they are dismantled similar to a restoration job, plus you’d get to hone your tin bashing skills.

Alternatively XH668, you have two other options, both in West Sussex:

Northbrook College at Shoreham offer the following:

http://www.northbrook.ac.uk/browse/fe/aero/

They are still, working to getting B1 tuition approval, although I believe you can do A Licence exams there currently – worth ringing to find out.

Or Crawleys best Virgin Atlantic, run an apprenticeship scheme every year. Paid work for 4 years up to include A licence and either B1 or B2 qualifications. Hands on experience from year two and you are paid through-out.

Andrew Brown
Virgin Atlantic Airways
Engineering Training School
The Base
Fleming Way
Crawley
West Sussex
RH10 9LX

Tel: +44 (0)1293 444 419
Tel: +44 (0)1293 747 972
Fax: +44 (0)1293 747 888

Give Andrew a call to find out more, and for this years intake dates.

Those are two good options in Sussex. If you need further info, PM me.

Rgds FB

Hi Gents,

The RAF Museum at Cosford employs an apprentice in the Conservation Centre and she is doing rather well.

Hopefully the first of many others.

http://www.raf.mod.uk/news/index.cfm?storyid=68C06EA4-1143-EC82-2E38107C21D4D752

Regards
Ross

An excellent idea… interesting quote from the above site…

‘The scheme also offers a unique opportunity to fill a skills shortage of technicians qualified and skilled to work on the conservation and preservation of historic aircraft.’

Hi Gents,

The RAF Museum at Cosford employs an apprentice in the Conservation Centre and she is doing rather well.

Hopefully the first of many others.

http://www.raf.mod.uk/news/index.cfm?storyid=68C06EA4-1143-EC82-2E38107C21D4D752

Regards
Ross

Right, im 16 and im taking my gcse’s. i have also been given the opertunity to take enginering at college and i have gained NVQ L1 and i am workig on level 2

i help out at hangar 11 and i would like to go into aircarft engineering, should i say on and do level 3 e.t.c or move onto aircraft engineering in particular? and where can i do this at a place thats local to where i live (west essex)?

Thanks

My advice would be to go to college and do level 3, and look towards a local college which supplies as many aviation engineering qualifications as possible – we do BTEC and C&G in a single 2 year course. We also run a Saturday club which focusses on people such as yourself and gives them an introduction to aircraft maintenance as a career. Our main outlet for these semi-skilled graduates is an EASA 147 training facility where they then study for a foundation degree and the EASA modules for the B1 licence – again 2 years. The nearest university which runs 147 is Kingston in West London. (I think…)

Stick with Hangar 11 too – you will learn more hands-on stuff actually on the shop floor than you will stuck in a classroom for 2 years! (Again, thats something we are addressing in our new facility)

All of which is well and good for civillian aircraft maintenance within EASA / CAA legislation. (and from september will include fixed wing aircraft below 5700kg)

Good luck with your career in aerospace engineering – its a good career to be in… rewarding and good money. Keep the passion!

Right, im 16 and im taking my gcse’s. i have also been given the opertunity to take enginering at college and i have gained NVQ L1 and i am workig on level 2

i help out at hangar 11 and i would like to go into aircarft engineering, should i say on and do level 3 e.t.c or move onto aircraft engineering in particular? and where can i do this at a place thats local to where i live (west essex)?

Thanks
________
Vaporizer Pipe
________
Marijuana seed

without wishing to be rude, you seem to have a funny view of the current aircraft industry.
to listen to you it would be easy to believe that there’s no one out there that can rivet, wheel a skin or do much in the way of structures. .

Hi Bloodnok,
I hear what you say, yes I fully agree with you that there are still pockets of skill and excellence within the UK. These as mentioned by yourself and others mainly within the airline maintenance / G.A, sector, these days…long may this continue.

My comments really relate to the former UK aircraft manufacturing industry, I think there can be no doubt about the current status of this, (badly in need of restoration)
My rather pessimistic view comes from what I see around me, Fournier Boys ‘case book’ sums things up pretty well in my opinion.

So in an attempt to be more positive, for those still keen to get involved in old aircraft go west young man…many more opportunities in the USA.

Chumpy.

When I was 16-18 I did a GNVQ in engineering with aerospace options, at a local college it was a last minute thing to get on as I was ‘dumped’ off of my a-levels after the first day apparently the school had over subscribed,so I had to go. I’d been volunteering for a year or so before at OW, so they let me join the course. The problem was the course was supposed to be 5 days a week but was actually 3 and a half and this went down as we went along. The course was run by a couple of ex-raf engineers (2 a/c and 1 fairy) the course did nvq3 as well and was initially set up so FLS could pick the ones they wanted at the end.
It was lacking in a lot of useful hand skills and to be honest I think I picked up as much if not more volunteering at Shuttleworth, when I joined Britannia as an apprentice I was allowed to jump the first year(basic hand skills) and go to play in the hangar, even now 8 years later I’m not as good as I feel I could have been if given a better start at school. But the appo’s we have now are worse on hand skills than when I started, and have a very intensive first year working with Monarch at their training school.

By the way still at OW and still learning.
The root cause of the problem is that the schools either don’t have the time or facilities to teach ‘proper’ hand skills, and I don’t see this is going to change, so getting anyone interested in fixing let alone restoring aircraft, where the money isn’t there, is going to be nigh on impossible. 🙁

I hope I’ll be proved wrong and I’m far too cynical for my age (27) but with a constant threat of all heavy maintenance on ours and other fleets going to less well paid european countries, I can’t see anyone wanting to join this industry, but if everything is outsourced there may be a glut of skilled people looking to light aircraft work in the next 10 years.;)

Following on from Bruce’s comments, I too joined said same Museum just a year after him as a volunteer after a chance visit one Sunday with my Dad. Unfortunately family events intervened and I had to move further south just over a year later (albeit I still managed to hitch a lift back every now and then to keep working on the aircraft, and indeed often took bits back with me to do at home!).

However, that sowed the seed that led me, on leaving school, to successfully apply for a 4-year fully indentured aeronautical apprenticeship with the MoD – a much coveted thing in those days when, out of some 740 applicants only 25 were taken on. One entire year of hand skills training (mainly filing metal blocks to rediculous tolerances!), one year sheet metal and systems training and then two years on the shop floor eventually ended up with me becoming Bronze medalist at the MoD Apprentice of the Year competition out of 1,700 apprentices nationwide (….cough…blow own trumpet 😀 ). All that coupled with ONC and HNC day-release courses at the nearby college. And best of all, it paid! Not hugely, but it was better than nothing.

I also got involved with some more aircraft restoration at the same time – two aircraft that, funnily enough, eventually found their way to Cobham Hall, Yeovilton just a few hundred yards from where I now work. On the back of my apprenticeship I got a weekend job with a local company maintaining and restoring light and vintage aircraft which gave me the opportunity to try my hand at woodworking and fabric covering – I’ll always have the greatest admiration for those who can do that!! Though I certainly didn’t do it for the money (more for the experience) the intermittent nature of the payments that I was promised, increasingly bizarre behaviour of the owner finally put an end to that one. No experience is worth being made a mug of.

All that, and more, from a chance visit to a Museum!

Difficult one this one, I can only relate to personal experience. Basic metalwork had long been dropped from my schools technology dept offerings, favouring making money boxes from bits of ply and generally glueing things together with PVA (by god you wouldn’t have given a pupil at my school a hammer and nails!). However, wanting to gain practical experience, I went to a microlight firm locally, who, because I was keen, took me under their wing (no punn) and taught me the very basics. It wasn’t until a was doing my BCAR Licence exams that I received any definitive metalwork training as the college I was attending was mainly gearing up the successful candidates to work in the light GA industry.

With 3 months of metal work, although I could submit suitable CAA test pieces for insertion repairs, riviting etc, I didn’t feel this was sufficient. IWM Duxford were more than happy for me to join (unpaid of course) full time at Duxford to boost my skills. The chaps (and chapesses) there are more than happy to pass on their skills, but unfortunately, there were few young people – reasons later….

My next employer equally (although i got paid this time) looked after me, and I got to use wheels for rolling, and presses for more complex items. The owner had even tried to start a local apprenticeship, but certain reasons meant it wasn’t to last…..

Finally I was released onto GA, lots of hands on, lots of metalwork, lots of fun – problem? Yes, no experience meant, no money – literally – work for free!

Four months down the line and 3 stone lighter, a job offer (I now have experience). I take it, company lasts a little longer, dies, and we all go to find other jobs (note – company dies not due to my recent employment!)

Whats my point, well the same reasons came up in every job – money.

I knew plenty of guys my age who were keen to go and do these things – and its great for a couple of years. Unfortunately, for people starting out in life, money is everyting now. I could just afford to work for free and food (literally) if i had another job in a pub, cutting grass, cleaning cars etc etc, but I could only do it for a short while.

Kids at Duxford came and went, its fine to work full time for free to gain experience, but after a couple of months, funds run dry and you have to move on.

My next employer rebuilt historic aircraft, he sells on average one every 4 years. In the meanwhile he has to pay his overheads and fund the next project. The only way he could do this was to employ retired ex airline staff who had pensions to subsidise the low wages he paid for their part time work. The apprentice also had to have these low wages, but although it may cover the bills, low wages (as low as this kid was on) does not a house deposit make.

Even when I got to GA, as a fresh keen LICENCED engineer, I earnt £8000pa. A lot of fun, lots of flying, but wouldn’t pay rent in the SE England.

So what did I do, I joined an airline. Now I’ve got my cub to keep my handskills in, I hoe to add more projects over the years, and maybe, just maybe, I can make a business of it.

However, I know that if i do, I will only be employing retired guys who can afford to work two to three days a week for absolute minimum, to be subsidised by their pension. unless you talk rare aeroplanes, there is not a wealth of money to be made restoring aerolanes to any condition, be it static, or flying. Labour costs, far out weigh the value of the aeroplane, and material costs are high.

As long as this is the situation, you will struggle to find young people to work for little money, particularly in the SE. Pressure is on to buy a house, and save for the future, i think this is put as a priority over having fun.

For the record regards ages:

I worked at Microlights aged 15
I started my Licence Course at 18
I worked at Duxford at 19
Aero Vintage at 20
GA Licenced Engineer at 21
Joined a major airline just after my 22nd birthday.
Was licenced on the A340-300/500/600 when I was 23.
I’m now 25 with a fledgling business using old aeroplanes, and my first vintage restoration (for me) underway.

FB

Hmmm…the awful truth is certainly coming out tonight, answer is the BOTTOM LINE.

Myself and Mackerel are products of the old time Brit aircraft industry, this supply of product was chopped off at the knees back in the 1980s and has not been replaced.
The ‘warbird’ industry in the UK relies heavily on these past skills as paid for by said company’s along with traditional RAF metal bashing training. What remains of the UK mainstream aircraft industry is now composite based, thus no need for metal bashing, riveting skills etc, or training in such matters.

As previously mentioned the restoration company’s are small concerns, with a bottom line that allow scant financial resources to train the next generation.

Chumpy.

without wishing to be rude, you seem to have a funny view of the current aircraft industry.
to listen to you it would be easy to believe that there’s no one out there that can rivet, wheel a skin or do much in the way of structures. whereas in reality this is exactly the sort of work that goes on at many aircraft maintenance places across the UK daily.
there are even companies still offering apprentice courses in sheet metal fabrication (this includes wheeling skins.).
i myself currently work on a very modern state of the art aircraft with a lot of composite structures…… but it has a lot of fairing and other structures which are made of metal, and when these are damaged we make new pieces by beating the metal over a former, then shrinking/stretching to fit. just the sort of skills needed in restoration, and not ‘that’ rare.

as for restoration courses i think if you are offering NVQ’s in restoration the only way they would work is if you are working on aircraft already, and wanted to get into restoration and needed to familiarise yourself with older fasteners, systems and methods, otherwise you haven’t got the background knowledge of aircraft in general, and maybe the standards that are involved.
would the course include wooden structures and all the associated things that go with them?

on similar lines, quite a few years ago Colchester institute ran a comprehensive car restoration course, this covered all aspects of restoration, from welding, trimming, electrics, spraying, rebuilding components and fabrication (in both steel and aluminium).
the fabrication side included making aluminium and steel bodywork parts, stamping out louvers, wheeling aluminium to make compound curves, etc.
perhaps a course like this might be helpful to gain handskills and techniques. the only draw back i can see was that it was full time for 3 years.

OK, I am pretty unique in this business in that I am partly responsible for the running of a full time restoration company, AND the aircraft at a volunteer based museum.

It is clear to me that the skills crisis is real, and needs to be addressed if either are to survive for long. From a volunteer point of view, there are so many other distractions these days, that it is difficult indeed to attract people to give their time freely.

I am now forty (LL, you have ten years on me!!), but am still one of the youngest volunteers at the museum. We do have younger – but not many; many of our volunteers are retired, some are well into their eighties. When they are gone, there will be no-one to replace them.

We are currently looking towards building new premises at the museum in which to keep the aircraft. That way we will only need to restore them once (I hope!!). It is my earnest hope that I and others live long enough to see the job through to its end, when we can leave a first class museum for the future, with much of the restoration work done.

I became a volunteer twenty years ago this year – I have been doing it for half of my life! As a result of the volunteer work I was doing, I got a job working for a professional restoration company. I didnt exactly serve an apprenticeship – to this day, I have no qualifications as such, but I did learn an awful lot – about the restoration processes, and more importantly, about running a small company.

The pay is never going to be great, unless you have taken the risk, and you are running the company yourself – even then, it is a fraction of what you will get elsewhere. At the end of the day then, its down to enthusiasm, and to a genuine desire to work on old ju… er aeroplanes.

Now, training – Here’s the first point; unless you have a good work ethic, and are happy to be left alone to get on with the job, dont volunteer at museums. If you have a background in fixing your car, DIY and so on, then so much the better. These days, we dont teach metalwork, woodwork, or any of the skills we took for granted as kids, which is a great shame.

At work, we have successfully trained a number of people, all of whom had the car fixing type background, and are now very skilled metalworkers. Even if you get training with a manufacturer or the airlines, you will be unlikely to learn as many metalwork skills as you need to restore aeroplanes.

The NAHSI course appears to me (and I have yet to attend), to be a cut down version of some of the basic CAA license. Certainly, the books I have seen so far, are very similar. Some of the guys at the museum have attended some of the courses, and have done metalwork, Health and Safety, refinishing, and a number of others. I know they have a lot of other stuff planned for the future.

Bruce

Hmmm…the awful truth is certainly coming out tonight, answer is the BOTTOM LINE.

Myself and Mackerel are products of the old time Brit aircraft industry, this supply of product was chopped off at the knees back in the 1980s and has not been replaced.
The ‘warbird’ industry in the UK relies heavily on these past skills as paid for by said company’s along with traditional RAF metal bashing training. What remains of the UK mainstream aircraft industry is now composite based, thus no need for metal bashing, riveting skills etc, or training in such matters.

As previously mentioned the restoration company’s are small concerns, with a bottom line that allow scant financial resources to train the next generation.

Chumpy.

because there are very few people prepared to train them at reasonable cost . There are no incentives to become a volunteer and no possibility of real employment through it. its a catch 22 situation.

Do you need an incentive to become a volunteer. I would think that working on a spitfire for example would be incentive enough. As for employment, if you were a competent airframe fitter i see no reason why you wouldnt get a job in the restoration industry.

Steve

…….. you need the people to train, & they arnt beating the door down !!!

Steve

because there are very few people prepared to train them at reasonable cost . There are no incentives to become a volunteer and no possibility of real employment through it. its a catch 22 situation.

That’ll be NAHSI…. its a BAPC run initiative, funded primarily by the Heritage Lottery fund (Please correct me if I’m wrong – I really aught to check the website), based at DX. As far as I am aware, it teaches basic metal skills – solid rivetting, filing, etc.

The course I was thinking of would run between NAHSI and the BTEC in aerospace engineering. We are in immediate danger of losing the old skills, and I feel that someone should make an effort to retain the knowledge that is slipping from our grasp…

Look at it this way – how many YOUNG volunteers would automatically know where to look for the correct type of rivet, or know which grade of file to use, let alone know how to fabricate aluminium panels with any degree of accuracy – how many of us under the age of 40 have ever used an English Wheel to make compound curved cowls?…. While a year long course in the basics would not make instantly employable engineers, it COULD make the aircraft maintenance industry as a whole a bit more appealing.

Mainenance managers, museum managers, and anyone involved in the hiring of staff (paid or not) – which would you prefer to take on?:
a) The experienced engineer with only modern aircraft experience
b) The experienced engineer who knows how to fit Dzus fastner bushes manually and at least knows about the niceties of preserving the original material?

Can we look to the future engineers (who are about to sit their GCSE’s) and who will enrole on a BTEC and finally EASA licence exam course, and foster their interest in old aeroplanes? If not, in the future (20+ years) how many people are going to be able to dope and fabric an airframe to an acceptable (if not airworthy) standard? We are going to have to rely on speciallist (expensive) companies more and more…… have a think about what will happen in years to come…

This has been an idea of mine for many years – when I was 17, I wrote to the Fighter Collection and asked how I would become one of their paid engineers. They replied very politely and helpfully by saying that I would need to be a volunteer at my local museum to gain experience, and then apply at a later date. I duly did as I was advised, then joined the RAF as an engineer, then became a qualified civvie engineer, and now teach the very subject I wanted to learn about 13 years ago, and then re-joined my local museum….. I have worked on modern (ish) aircraft since I was 17, but never lost the need to be around ‘real’ aeroplanes. If I was inspired from an early age, then why not others? People with a passion for old metal will return to the fold when they have served their time on the modern stuff….

We do think about what will happen in year to come, most of the people i work with are the wrong side of 50, some closer to 70 or older, i agree some thing needs to be done but you need the people to train, & they arnt beating the door down !!!

Steve

I think the future will be grey and wrinkly…using godamn yanky MS / NAS hardware, on composite structures. Pass me my 2BA spanner!

Chumpy.

The NAHSI courses cover a range of topics and can also be carried out at local museums. The following link worked last time I looked….

http://www.nahsi.org.uk

I believe that there may be a Conservation Course run somewhere in the South of England – East Or West Sussex comes to mind; but more costly than the free NAHSI courses!

hang on a sec, im pretty sure the last time i was at DX i heard something about a voulnteer restoration thing, where one could go and learn all of the above mentioned skills (to one degree or another) and as you became proficient at this, you got a card that went into a little booklet folder, seemed to be a fairly central voulnteer thing, though i believe you had to pay something aroun £150 for it, i honestly can’t be sure? can anyone shed any light?

That’ll be NAHSI…. its a BAPC run initiative, funded primarily by the Heritage Lottery fund (Please correct me if I’m wrong – I really aught to check the website), based at DX. As far as I am aware, it teaches basic metal skills – solid rivetting, filing, etc.

The course I was thinking of would run between NAHSI and the BTEC in aerospace engineering. We are in immediate danger of losing the old skills, and I feel that someone should make an effort to retain the knowledge that is slipping from our grasp…

Look at it this way – how many YOUNG volunteers would automatically know where to look for the correct type of rivet, or know which grade of file to use, let alone know how to fabricate aluminium panels with any degree of accuracy – how many of us under the age of 40 have ever used an English Wheel to make compound curved cowls?…. While a year long course in the basics would not make instantly employable engineers, it COULD make the aircraft maintenance industry as a whole a bit more appealing.

Mainenance managers, museum managers, and anyone involved in the hiring of staff (paid or not) – which would you prefer to take on?:
a) The experienced engineer with only modern aircraft experience
b) The experienced engineer who knows how to fit Dzus fastner bushes manually and at least knows about the niceties of preserving the original material?

Can we look to the future engineers (who are about to sit their GCSE’s) and who will enrole on a BTEC and finally EASA licence exam course, and foster their interest in old aeroplanes? If not, in the future (20+ years) how many people are going to be able to dope and fabric an airframe to an acceptable (if not airworthy) standard? We are going to have to rely on speciallist (expensive) companies more and more…… have a think about what will happen in years to come…

This has been an idea of mine for many years – when I was 17, I wrote to the Fighter Collection and asked how I would become one of their paid engineers. They replied very politely and helpfully by saying that I would need to be a volunteer at my local museum to gain experience, and then apply at a later date. I duly did as I was advised, then joined the RAF as an engineer, then became a qualified civvie engineer, and now teach the very subject I wanted to learn about 13 years ago, and then re-joined my local museum….. I have worked on modern (ish) aircraft since I was 17, but never lost the need to be around ‘real’ aeroplanes. If I was inspired from an early age, then why not others? People with a passion for old metal will return to the fold when they have served their time on the modern stuff….