Pacific Wrecks Researcher Arrested Solomon Islands

As a person who grew up in North Queensland, Australia where a lot of the aeroplanes that flew in the battle for the Coral Sea and the americans who flew them were based/trained , I see very little value in having a memorial out in the remote place.

I prefer to see the wrecks recovered and restored where possible or used in the restoration of other aircraft. A memorial could be errected there in the form of a stone cairn with a information plate giving details of the aircraft that crashed there.

cheers

Hi Proctor,

I don’t think its a crash site, but rather a dump site, so the memorial i mentioned would have been sort of a general war memorial. Showing that once that island was a place of combat flying.

In non-aviation archeology they often record everything about a site, then leave it untouched for future generations. They realise that there are more relics, than there are museums to hold and restore them (and these museums often have government backing).

When I say preserving them in situ, I do mean preserve. If an aircraft of that type should later be rebuild, people are able to use the preserved aircraft as “templates”. Trying to rebuild one of the actual aircraft (as seen on the pictures) would never produce anything airworthy. There is not one bit on those planes that will ever fly (ok, there might be one or two bits, but not enough to warrent a recovery).

They could be used as basis for a diorama, but they are already in the most perfect diorama possible. Besides, most museums are looking to display aircraft, not wrecks.

Unless a restoration group can produce a full restoration plan (or a defined plan to use parts in aircraft already under restoration) and provide proof of the financial means to execute that plan, I’m pretty much against recovering aircraft in that state. There are aircraft out there, that are in a far better condition, and those should have priority. Maybe the Americans should lobby their government for access to US navy aircraft 😎

Just to set the record straight, i too would like to see them restored, but I don’t think that would happen. If they are recovered, I’m willing to bet that they will end in storage, never to be seen again. A project of that size, would need serious commitment from a large group of people (not to mention quite a lot of money). Unless one of the major museums are willing to undertake it (and most of them already have a storage room full of aircraft, just waiting their turn – rare and historic aircraft too), such a restoration would stall and change hands a number of times, before the aircraft finally end up as parts scattered all over the place (a seat here, an instrument panel here and a cool cylinder on the shelf).

There is not enough interest in japanese warbirds (of that size) to finance a full restoration. Had it been a US/UK warbird, things might have been different.

I would love to be proven wrong, but having seen plenty of pictures of private “restoration projects” (none mentioned), I’m very reluctant to belive these aircraft would be any different.

Hmmmm, a lot of work there……

Am I wrong for thinking they should be preserved in situ as abandoned wrecks?

I know many of us don’t wander around those areas, but for those who do visit, I can think of no better war memorial.

As a person who grew up in North Queensland, Australia where a lot of the aeroplanes that flew in the battle for the Coral Sea and the americans who flew them were based/trained , I see very little value in having a memorial out in the remote place.

I prefer to see the wrecks recovered and restored where possible or used in the restoration of other aircraft. A memorial could be errected there in the form of a stone cairn with a information plate giving details of the aircraft that crashed there.

cheers

I think the photos CLEARLY demonstrate the result when relics are left in situ.

Fund a good museum to house a few and recover the rest for preservation before they are scrapped or nothing is left.

I wrote PRESERVED in situ. That means taking measures against further deterioration. I was not suggesting just leaving them.

Hmmmm, a lot of work there……

Am I wrong for thinking they should be preserved in situ as abandoned wrecks?

I know many of us don’t wander around those areas, but for those who do visit, I can think of no better war memorial.

I think the photos CLEARLY demonstrate the result when relics are left in situ.

Fund a good museum to house a few and recover the rest for preservation before they are scrapped or nothing is left.

http://www.classicwings.com/

You can place an order here for the latest (Issue 64). The website has yet to be updated.

Dave

Read the magazine and you will find out, what you think and the facts are way different.

Dave

The magasine is not on sale where i live, so I’m stuck with my thoughts.

Unless you would like to share your information, rather than just refering to the magasine 😉

Read the magazine and you will find out, what you think and the facts are way different.

Dave

The latest Classic Wings has a couple of pages on the recovery of the Ballalae wrecks and shows why the remaining wrecks won’t survive much longer ‘in situ’

Dave

Unless the island is sinking under them, then they can be preserved on site. Sticking them in the back of a museum storage hangar, never to be seen again, just seem like an odd choice to me.

Aircraft are outdoor things and can survive outdoors it threated right. Naturally somebody has to pay for the work, and it might be hard find somebody willing.

The latest Classic Wings has a couple of pages on the recovery of the Ballalae wrecks and shows why the remaining wrecks won’t survive much longer ‘in situ’

Dave

An interesting find whilst browsing the web this morning:

http://www.gjdservices.co.uk/html/solomon_s.html

GJD will not be following up on the visit.

Hmmmm, a lot of work there……

Am I wrong for thinking they should be preserved in situ as abandoned wrecks?

I know many of us don’t wander around those areas, but for those who do visit, I can think of no better war memorial.

Soloman Recoveries

An interesting find whilst browsing the web this morning:

http://www.gjdservices.co.uk/html/solomon_s.html

Gentilmen, please do not throw your teddies out of the pram over this. The two of you (doc and scopion) have different opinions, ok. It has been civilized so far:D.

I can assure you, sir, I remain teddus in situ. I just like to see some evidence given in support of claims.

Reading this thread, I think the best post so far has to go to Mark_pilkington.

Aw, and I thought I was doing so well:p But yes, he does make a balanced opinion.

DS

Aus $ 4,400 = US $ 3,818.29.

And stop typing in bold – you’re giving me a headache.

Thats 4,400 AuD which turned out to be a tad over 100,000 USD that is according to what Jungle Bob reported. either way Justin claimed he was only fined 108 USD like I said he was lying about this. Also what isn’t reported in the Newspaper article is that this was the second time that Justin had been caught come to the Solomon Illegally.

Also please note that as I said that while you might think it was not a true up and up recovery show me one in that part of the World that is, they did have the correct paperwork and the blessing of the Present Government Also I know of Craig Turner and yes he is a well know aircraft recover person from Australian has been involved with a number of projects thru out the greater Pacific Islands.

As for Mr. Otuana this isn’t the first time he has try to claim ownership over the Shortland Island back in 1999 and then again in 2002 he try to have his Land claim except by the International Courts and both time he was turned down with the courts ruling that the Shortland Island are part of the nation of The Solomons.

Oh and for the record all of the aircraft have left the Solomons by now and should be if all things go right start being work on. As for the Museum project well as I said in my past post this is one of the agreements that the Government put on the recover some of the money that is going to come out of the resale of some of the aircraft will go towards the building of a very nice museum were allot more of the Solomon War Time History will be put on display and there is plans to help them build a restoration shop also.

Now if this was some Western Museum none of us would be jumping up and down because we all would say that nice save some aircraft and since we have to sell off some to help build up the Museum than thats fine also. But since its the Third World Pacific Island most of you all jump up and down saying us folks who are doing the recovery’s are taking advantage of the poor Islanders far from it. Lets just say this two years ago some of the very same folks were thinking to let the Scrappers from China to come in and CLEAN UP THESE JUNK PILES I’m so glad that someone told them that these were worth more then scrap prices. But then again if you think like Justin you rather see them just turn into dust in the Jungle:rolleyes: .

Any chance of seeing some pictures of the recovered aircraft, i am glad these are finally being recovered as i have long been a fan of the Japanese aircraft from the second world war………..Martin

Martin,

I believe and don’t quote me on this but there is going to be a article in Classic Wings I do know that some photos have already been shown on the Web. I’ll ask my source if they plan on showing the photos right now I think they are waiting to get everything unload and look at first.

Any chance of seeing some pictures of the recovered aircraft, i am glad these are finally being recovered as i have long been a fan of the Japanese aircraft from the second world war………..Martin

Gentilmen, please do not throw your teddies out of the pram over this. The two of you (doc and scopion) have different opinions, ok. It has been civilized so far:D

Reading this thread, I think the best post so far has to go to Mark_pilkington.

Well Galdri I told Mark12 I would be a good boy now and so far I’ve bitten my lip. I suspect you know who I am and you might also know my involvement in said project. I don’t have a problem with Doc its more of s problem with Justin then anyone else.

Gentilmen, please do not throw your teddies out of the pram over this. The two of you (doc and scopion) have different opinions, ok. It has been civilized so far:D

Reading this thread, I think the best post so far has to go to Mark_pilkington.

Hmmmmm..

The Solomon Star Online:

“Home
Ballalae warplanes shipped to Australia
Submitted by drupal on Mon, 2008-01-07 14:39. Headlines
BY EDNAL PALMER
WARPLANE remains controversially removed from Ballalae Island then held in a Ports Authority shed in Honiara have been quietly shipped to Australia.
The four World War Two Japanese planes were removed from Ballalae in the Shortland Islands but trouble then erupted.
Ninamo Otuana, who claims registered title over the island, said he was pursuing the matter in court. He said he had sought an injunction to stop the planes being shipped overseas from Honiara.
Mr Otuana alleged a small group of high profile people benefited from the deal under the name of the FAMOA trust board.
However, a Solomon Islands Ports Authority source confirmed the warplanes were shipped to Australia last month in two containers.
SITE
Ballalae was the site of a big Japanese airbase during World War Two. Hundreds of British prisoners of war were used by the Japanese to build the Ballalae runway and then massacred there.
After the war the island was said to contain one of the largest collections of Japanese World War Two planes still intact.
The latest removal stirred anger amongst people who said the continuing removal of planes from Ballalae is stealing the area’s heritage. It was also taking tourism benefits away from future generations of Solomon Islanders.
The then Opposition – now the Sikua Government – also voiced concern about the deal and whether it benefited the country. However, the plane removal is believed to have had support within the Sogavare Government.
An Australian by the name of Craig Turner is the person reported to have been spearheading the project to get the war relics overseas.
In 2003 Mr Turner was said to have been appointed senior advisor and director of the project by the then Tourism Minister, Alex Bartlett.
LICENCE
As part of his remuneration package, he was said to have been granted an exclusive licence to remove 11 World War Two aircraft from Ballalae.
He was said to have been required among other tasks to assist with the development of a satellite museum at Ballalae and to train Solomon Islanders in conservation techniques.
A reliable source said Mr Turner said he had been director of an aircraft salvage museum. But the source said there was no evidence that this place existed.
The source said that the appropriateness of granting an exclusive license to export items of national heritage to an advisor as part of his salary should be questioned.
The source said the planes and plane parts removed from Ballalae have been used in aircraft restoration overseas. This has generated millions of dollars for the overseas restorers when the planes are bought and exhibited.”

And:

“http://www.solomonstarnews.com/?q=node/16369

Home
Aliens fined $4,400 for entering illegally
Submitted by drupal on Wed, 2007-12-19 11:33. Headlines
By DOUGLAS MARAU
FOUR foreigners were each fined $4,400 for illegal entry under the Passport Act and Immigration Act at Gizo Magistrate Court over the weekend.
The accused are Rodney Lochore from Australia, Daisy Elaih from Papua New Guinea, Justin Richard Taylan from USA and Yoji Sakaida from Japan.
They pleaded guilty to the charge.
The court heard that on 3 November, the foreigners arrived at Ballalae, Shortland islands on board a vessel called “Barbarian”.
At Shortland harbour, outside Nila Station, the court heard that the accused snorkelled and dived the World War Two relics.
The court heard that after that they also went to Balalae and tried to smuggle pieces of the relics on the island.
The court heard that it was then that the immigration, Custom and police officials at Gizo were alerted and flew over by a RAMSI plane and arrested them.
Chief Magistrate Leonard Maina when sentencing the four foreigners said Solomon Islands is a nation with laws governing and protecting its resources and people.
“The country has laws that protect its resources and historical things such as the World War two relics,” Mr Maina said.
He told the foreigners that like any other countries, foreigners who wished to enter the country must have proper traveling documents and must be cleared out from the last port of departure.
The foreigners during the court proceedings told the court that when they went to the port of entry on 3 November, there were no customs officers there to clear them.
However, Mr Maina said in such cases, the foreigners should have proceeded to the next port of entry.
“I warn foreigners who wish to come into Solomon Islands that it is an offence to enter the country without proper clearance,” he said.
“Failure to comply with the country’s immigration laws will result on heavy penalties imposed on you.”
The prosecution was represented by Crown Prosecutor Malaki Ungui.
Public Solicitor Ms Paulson appeared for the accused.”

Not quite a 108,000USD fine…..

Thats 4,400 AuD which turned out to be a tad over 100,000 USD that is according to what Jungle Bob reported. either way Justin claimed he was only fined 108 USD like I said he was lying about this. Also what isn’t reported in the Newspaper article is that this was the second time that Justin had been caught come to the Solomon Illegally.

Also please note that as I said that while you might think it was not a true up and up recovery show me one in that part of the World that is, they did have the correct paperwork and the blessing of the Present Government Also I know of Craig Turner and yes he is a well know aircraft recover person from Australian has been involved with a number of projects thru out the greater Pacific Islands.

As for Mr. Otuana this isn’t the first time he has try to claim ownership over the Shortland Island back in 1999 and then again in 2002 he try to have his Land claim except by the International Courts and both time he was turned down with the courts ruling that the Shortland Island are part of the nation of The Solomons.

Oh and for the record all of the aircraft have left the Solomons by now and should be if all things go right start being work on. As for the Museum project well as I said in my past post this is one of the agreements that the Government put on the recover some of the money that is going to come out of the resale of some of the aircraft will go towards the building of a very nice museum were allot more of the Solomon War Time History will be put on display and there is plans to help them build a restoration shop also.

Now if this was some Western Museum none of us would be jumping up and down because we all would say that nice save some aircraft and since we have to sell off some to help build up the Museum than thats fine also. But since its the Third World Pacific Island most of you all jump up and down saying us folks who are doing the recovery’s are taking advantage of the poor Islanders far from it. Lets just say this two years ago some of the very same folks were thinking to let the Scrappers from China to come in and CLEAN UP THESE JUNK PILES I’m so glad that someone told them that these were worth more then scrap prices. But then again if you think like Justin you rather see them just turn into dust in the Jungle:rolleyes: .

I do support the retention of some of these aircraft/wrecks in the Pacific Nations for heritage preservation of the battle ground, these wrecks are part of the heritage of the locality, even if the “locals” didnt own them at the time, fly them or maintain them.

But I would prefer to have debates on the issues rather than the individuals concerned, I have some sympathy for Justin for the drumming he is getting in these forums, he is entitled to his opinion, and he openly defends it, and should be respected for that, and the effort he has made to promote the importance of these wrecks in the Pacific.

I also think he is correct to argue for better management of the wrecks in situ, having said that I dont agree at all with the view of leaving a rare aircraft like Swamp Ghost in situ, or not recovering near intact examples or composite components of currently extinct Japanese aircraft for restoration.

It would be great if a major tourism income could be delivered to the local communities through some of these wrecks but the basic truth is that the majority of western tourists are off to “club-med” type resorts and not into backpacking into the jungles to see aircraft wrecks.

Some of these nations appear to have serious law and order issues that would work against such objectives, the “rascal” gangs of PNG, and even the indescriminant scrapping of wrecks for beer money, or even entrenched corruption.

Similarly there is a “western” type central government structure that is overlayed above local tribal law and individual land owner rights, making “ownership” and legal rights apparantly very uncertain.

Against that background it must be a difficult process to negotiate a successful recovery for the benefit and “satisfaction” of everyone.

It also makes it difficult for us to establish the true “legality” from the other side of the world over the internet.

The Tallichet recoveries of the 1970’s included retention of a number of aircraft in the various recovery areas as war memorials such as the B-25 at Tadji.(I am not sure how well that aircraft has fared in the subsequent years or how many tourists have rocked up to view it?)

Similarly the RAAF Museum recovery of the Bostons included a substatial gift back of a restored A20 for a future PNG National Museum.

It would seem that the current Solomon’s island project has a similar “local museum” outcome as part of its agreement.

What has soured the local communities and Central Governments (or Opposition parties) and perhaps fueled Justin’s arguments is that many of recoveries has delivered little true “visible” benefit back to the local communities or the preservation of wartime heritage locally.

Thats not to say the recovery groups hav’nt provided what was asked for, unfortunately it would seem the way of doing business requires payments to individuals rather than provision of a “public” good, and the complaints seem to arise from those who feel they missed out.

Hopefully the Solomons recoveries will deliver a successful outcome that can form a template elsewhere such as back in PNG to overcome the current empasse?

Hopefully Justin will use his own influence to lobby for, and support a recovery management process that permits rare aircraft to be recovered and restored, while allowing some preservation of wrecks for both tourism and heritage retention in the local areas, as well as recoveries of more intact airframes for the future restoration and display in the pacific nations own museums.

However corruption, and worse still local scrapping will be a difficult and ongoing issue for these Nations to manage, and they have many other problems like law and order, employment, education and health to manage.

While some people are concerned by the money making “incentives” of these aircraft recoveries, it is clear “National Museums” in the US, UK, Japan or Australia are not going to recover many more of these wrecks for static restoration and it is left to the “warbird” collector who is effectively funding these recoveries, along with the restoration “houses” that will undertake the restorations.

While there may be a lot of value in a completely restored and airworthy Japanese Betty Bomber or a combat veteran B17 “Swamp Ghost”, the transport and restoration costs alone will still probably exceed the realisable market value of the completed aircraft, without taking into account any “purchase” price to the current “owners” and it is therefore unreasonable to ascribe “restored” values to a wreck sitting in the jungles of the Pacific.

In the end I admire and applaud all of those who are recovering these wrecks for future posterity, particularly the recovery of rare/extinct Japanese aircraft, they will rot away if left insitu, and worse be at risk of indiscriminate or “organised” scrapping.

I do hope some common sense prevails to see properly managed recovery arrangements in the future that allows for preservation (and protection) of selected wrecks insitu, recovery of certain airframes for the local Nation’s own “National collections”, and recovery of further rare and important aircraft and parts before they are lost to scrapping or the elements.

Unfortunately to do that the Nation’s themselves would need to appoint managers to review what still survives, determine its worth as a preserved wreck, airworthy restoration “interest” or suitable recovery for their own National Collections, and then actively manage all of those wrecks, unfortunately such issues would likely get caught up with arguments between local and Central Government officials, as said before these Nations would seem to have more pressing issues to manage?

Regards

Mark Pilkington