Temperate Sea Camouflage

Thanks for the last three replies.
True enough re the lighting. My artist has demonstrated this by adding a trace of red or blue to the colours and then turning the images into black and white. The colour bands then reverse completely – what was darker is now lighter! So if one takes into account paint variations, lighting, film type etc, interpretation becomes very challenging. And of course these are camouflage colours so it makes sense they would tend to be ambiguous.
The AMOs are:
– For the period 1940/41. Upper Surfaces – Temperate Sea Scheme consisting of Dark Grey and Extra Dark Sea Grey. AMO A.926/40 to AMO A.687/41
– For the period 1942/43. Upper Surfaces – Temperate Sea Scheme consisting of Dark Slate Grey and Extra Dark Sea Grey. AMO A.664/42 to AMO A.1246/43.
– For the period 1944/45. Upper Surfaces – Extra Dark Sea Grey. AMO A864/44 to A.P.2656A
Colour photos would of course be ideal. Have only come across two so far: FK186 ‘S’ over Benbecula and FL462 ‘W’ in the Azores, invariably incorrectly identified as being at Benbecula. Also have one of FL461 in PNG but this was US-applied paint, another complicating factor. Does anyone have another….?
Many thanks for the thread. Will follow up on the Warpaint series.
Kind regards:
Robert

This thread almost 2 years ago …
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=52359
references various publications, one or more of which may help in your quest.
D

Effectively what you want is a colour and a B+W photo of the same aircraft – or an aircraft from the same batch

Good to have a date for that standardisation – thanks.

Black and White pics also depend on the light the photo was taken in. I’ve seen aircraft in a hangar, presumably under yellow tungsten light, in which the two colours are clearly defined. But outdoors in certain conditions, aircraft are sometimes all one shade of grey – no contrast difference between the two colours. But those were new aircraft before colours had faded. Interesting topic.

From aircraft coming out of factories, I know the change from ESDG/DSG to predominantly white schemes for Coastal Command was in about March 1943. But I’ve not got access to documents which issued the orders, or the details of squadron code colours. It would be interesting if anybody had that info.

Thank you both. I was leaning towards DSG being the darker colour in B&W photos but take your point about the fading etc. My inclination was based on photos I took of a Fortress still marked in the RAF scheme at the time – FL461 in PNG – and tying those in with B&W photos of other examples.
Would be very interested in any other documents related to Coastal Command schemes for period 1942/43, especially related to code and serial colours. My understanding is that there was a brief period after the introduction of the Temperate Sea and white scheme where codes were Dull Red and serials Night.
Thanks for the colour samples – alas, unless one’s monitor is precisely calibrated, these subtle colours can be way off on the screen. My artist and I are going through this at the moment and it takes sending proofs by mail to ensure that the colours are properly understood at both ends.
Thanks again and kind regards:
Robert

Here is a merged scan using PSP of the two colours in question taken from 60+ year old Ministry of Aircraft Production Colour chips.

Mark

And for black and white tonal variation.

Am looking for irrefutable evidence that the darker hue in black and white photos of Coastal Command or FAA aircraft in Temperate Sea camouflage is Dark Slate Grey (a green-tinged colour) while the lighter hue is the Extra Dark Sea Grey (a blue-tinged grey).
Regards:
Robert

Letter from Air Ministry 11th August 1940, at National Archives under ADM 1/11958 directing that, as the result of a conference on July 23rd 1940, aircraft should be painted according to the schemes set out for maximum standarisation.

“Temperate Sea Scheme – Camouflage consists of two colours, i.e. DARK SLATE GREY and EXTRA DARK SEA GREY”.

Irrefutable enough for you?

I’d say of the two, the darker was ESDG, and DSG tended to fade more, so on B&W images the lighter is more likely to be the DSG. However, interpreting B&W photos should come with a health warning, and green does funny things, particularly on orthochromatic film.