Spitfire identification n°2

My work here is done I think, and when we were at the Legends show in July, after watching one of the Spits land, he looked at me and said “You can teach, Monkies to fly better than that” – a bit harsh on the display pilot but I was chuffed!

Ha! Brilliant! 😀

My 8 year old is getting hooked on this…

Like all boys, he has a short attention span at the moment, we lurch from dinosaurs, to Dr Who, with a brief flirtation with Power Rangers. But he has taken my BoB DVD with him on a few trips to stay with grandad and when we watch TV, its often a movie of choice. My work here is done I think, and when we were at the Legends show in July, after watching one of the Spits land, he looked at me and said “You can teach, Monkies to fly better than that” – a bit harsh on the display pilot but I was chuffed!

OK somebody has to ask;)
What is the identity of the pilot doing his ‘walk round’ on the 2 seater in photo No 2.

cheers baz

Baz,

Tim Mills, one of six or so serving RAF CFI’s seconded to the film in 1968, advises today:-

I am just about certain that the picture is of John Preece (Flt Lt) who was with us for most of the time but had to leave early on posting. I was not lucky enough to visit the south of France by Spitfire, had to stay at Duxford because they wanted to do Hurricane scenes, ended up by doing a lot of taxiing through bomb blasts in non airworthy Spits for the attack on the airfield scene; not quite the same!

Mark

Mark 12 The pictures are great and thanks very much for rekindling a very old memory.
I can probably give you an exact date for the display but it means a trip into the loft to find my old spotters logs but when i am up there next I will try to dig them out.
I don’t think any of the participating aircraft landed partly because they ran a motorcycle sprint and I think kart races on the runway for most of the day.
I have got the programme for the sprint somewhere and last time I looked at it i was surprised to find some famous names from the sprint world including Alf Hagon and the works lambretta record breaker Marlene Parker amongst the entry so it must have been a fairly high profilre sprint meeting.

The two seater is exactly as I remember it and I always believed it was TE308/ G-AWGB but it is nice to be sure.
As a very enthusiastic 12 year old I was very disappointed to find that the two seater was the only film aircraft on the ground. The others flew in to display and departed again without landing (presumeably to Duxford). I have probably got lists of the codes somewhere which would help a bit with ID’s but was just curious to know exactly which aircraft I actually saw.
.

WJ244,

Looking a bit more deeply in to the Debden public display I have been unable to ascertain the actual date of the show, but my guess is about July 1968. I met Neville Franklin there for the first time and I would be sure he would have written something in his journal, ‘Control Column’, at the time. I don’t have them all for that period and Vol 2 Number 4 is the issue that holds the key.

Analyzing the the scant images I took at the event, I make the following observations with the benefit of 40 years of database.

The Spitfire leading this trio is a single seat Mk IX one of three flying examples used in the film. Just visible, at high res, are the white dots on the leading edge of the strobe machine guns. Only MH415/G-AVDJ had these fitted. The aircraft is coded DO-M, only MH415/G-AVDJ of the three Mk IX’s used this code.

Further conformation that it is MH415 is the same aircraft making singleton passes trailing smoke. MH415 had the smoke generation kit fitted.

Next we have the formation of four Spitfires.

Two short and two long Merlin machines. Reading left to right, aircraft 3 & 4 are Mk IX’s. These two machines must be MH434/G-ASJV and MK297/G-ASSD. The reason being that all the other alternatives can reasonably be accounted for. MH415 is the singleton smoker and the Buchon formation machine, TE308 is u/s in the Debden hangar. MJ772 the other two seater was ‘bellied in’ early July and was not fitted with a radio mast, visible in the image.

Now consider aircraft 1 on the left hand side. A three blade propeller so can only be P7350 or AR501. P7 had the broad root Dowty Rotol, whilst AR501 had the slim root DeHavilland prop. The image favours the slim root prop, by study of other airborne shots of P7. The artificial distressing applied by the film company had its variations. Consider the black trail on the underside of the port wing of the two side by side centre machine guns. Even at this distance it can be seen that ‘gun two’ has longer trail than ‘gun three’ outboard. On P7 they were the same length. On AR501 they are as this image.

Now for aircraft 2 the tricky one. Four blade propeller but asymmetric radiators, so AB910 of the BBMF or AR213/G-AIST. Under surface distressing by comparison favours AR213 but it is marginal at this resolution. A mid summer weekend and the commitment of the BBMF to display with AB910 also favours AR213.

Mark

I always wonder if the Lancaster sound track made it into the BoB film.

During the scene in “Belgium”, with aircraft trying to scramble but being bombed and blowing up as they taxied, we were orbiting in the Duxford overhead at about 1500 feet waiting IIRC the RAF Spit and Hurri to join with us for a display.

The two seater is exactly as I remember it and I always believed it was TE308/ G-AWGB but it is nice to be sure.
As a very enthusiastic 12 year old I was very disappointed to find that the two seater was the only film aircraft on the ground. The others flew in to display and departed again without landing (presumerably to Duxford). I have probably got lists of the codes somewhere which would help a bit with ID’s but was just curious to know exactly which aircraft I actually saw.
I was also lucky enough to see Heinkel 6J+PR (G-AWHB) with Spitfire G-AVDJ and the Psychedelic Monster when they flew over our rugby field during a refuelling visit to Southend. As home and school were less than a mile from the runway and right under approach the view was great.
Also saw the mass formation on the way to film in France – a truly unforgetable sight even though they were fairly high over Southend.

ps. Daz note the small aerial on the underbelly of the adjacent MH434

I found it on closer inspection of the first pic – not easy, though! :p

WJ244,

I found the film/negatives and not a ‘light bar’ but an overlapping frame with the Shuttleworth PR XI.

Colour film at that, a rare treat in those austere days of Harold Wilson’s government. 🙂

So TE308/G-AWGB as DO-L. I suspect that the aircraft may have been unserviceable and awaiting rectification before returning to Duxford. Note the chalk script on the side of the fuselage, usually an indicator that something needed fixing.

I have six other frames on a 50mm lens showing the the two formations, four Spitfires in one and two Buchons plus a Spitfire in other.

With today’s knowledge I can make a passing judgement on the ID of the Spitfires, if this is of interest.

Again I think there was just the one Spitfire on the deck.

Mark

Peter – can you see from your original print/slide what the chalked writing is on the fuselage below the ‘tunnel’ between the cockpits? (and look, someone has left the ground starter socket door open, not good!)

Since we are on the subject of the Battle of Britain Film. I pestered the life out of my dad until he finally agreed to take me to RAF Debden display in 1968 which included a mock dogfight between some of the film aircraft. There was also a 2 seat spitfire in the hangar (presumeably G-AWGB / TE308).
Can anyone help with a confirmed ID for the two seater and possibly ID’s for the display aircraft (which I assume operated out of Duxford) as well.

WJ244,

Both of the two seat Spitfires operated out of Debden during the early part of the filming. I have a shot of MJ772 coded AI-D and a shot of TE308 coded CD-J in the hangar at Debden, however at the time of the public display, which I did attend, this shot of TE308 coded DO-L I am sure is the one you are after. Although not roped off there are enough people and young forms in the background to suggest this was the public display.

My own shots on that day did not turn out too well, as I recall, as I had a ‘light bar’ shutter problem and in consequence these shots are not in my main files. I have them tucked away somewhere and will endeavour to locate them for further conformation.

I am pretty sure the Spitfires and the Buchons flew in for the display but did not land. It was a brave man at that time who could speak with confidence as to the identities of these aircraft from ground observation. 🙂 I was not one of them.

Some parties went in to print at the time with errors and these lists have been regurgitated in subsequent writings – ‘list of list’ researchers.

I personally only quote identities and codes from a rock solid photographic data base. Even to this day I usually add two or three more Codes each year to the Spitfire list as yet further new shots turn up. At the time there was not the realisation that these unit codes were changing some times on a daily basis.

Mark

Image credit: With apologies to an unknown photographer

Since we are on the subject of the Battle of Britain Film. I pestered the life out of my dad until he finally agreed to take me to RAF Debden display in 1968 which included a mock dogfight between some of the film aircraft. There was also a 2 seat spitfire in the hangar (presumerably G-AWGB / TE308).
Can anyone help with a confirmed ID for the two seater and possibly ID’s for the display aircraft (which I assume operated out of Duxford) as well.

Not only the Buchon propeller but also the Buchon BoB film spinner.

The propeller developed by Dowty-Rotol for the post WWII Buchon utilised many, if not most, of its components from the Mk IX Spitfire parts bin. The dedicated blades on the Buchon were aluminium alloy rather than the resin impregnated wood of the Spitfire IX.

The spinner on the Buchon was Spitfire Mk IX but these were modified at the start of filming to incorporate a dimpled cap to simulate the Me109 armament aperture.

Note the smoke generator adjacent to the first exhaust port

Mark

Image: Peter Sargent

ps. Daz note the small aerial on the underbelly of the adjacent MH434

Hi Spade grip how do you know thats a buchon prop? Is it because the tips have flat ends?

Thats a well known fact, I believe there is a picture in one of Robert Rudhall’s books that shows the unpainted Buchon prop on TE308 (in fact I sent a copy of the book to the current owner of TE308 as I thought he would find that picture amusing).

Buchon prop fitted on TE308

Anyone notice the Buchon prop fitted to TE308?

Hi Spade grip how do you know thats a buchon prop? Is it because the tips have flat ends?

Anyone notice the Buchon prop fitted to TE308?

Mark12 You obviously know your Spitfires. I notice someone else suggested you were educating the youngsters. As today is my 52nd bithday I don’t think I quite fall into that category. One of my biggest regrets is that we didn’t have such an active vintage aviation industry when I left school as we do now. As a school leaver I was told my only chance of an aviation career was to join Hawker Siddeley at Hatfield and nailing Tridents together didn’t really appeal. I was and still am more of a wood and canvas aviation nut. I think it had something to do with being able to understand the structure having built (and crashed) a good few Keil Kraft kits in my youth.

I think it will prove difficult to identify the other B of B film Spitfire unless someone reads this who worked on the film and has a very good memory.

The two books on the film by the late Robert Rudhall should not be missed, if the film’s aircraft are of interest. Much work by many people, some of whom I am lucky enough to call friends (and some who post here) have resulted in a very comprehensive guide to the differences and identifying the aircraft.

A brief search on this forum under the film will gorge anyone’s desire, I suspect.

http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?an=%27robert+rudhall%27&kn=battle&x=29&y=7

http://www.victorybooks.co.uk/author.htm

QldSpitty, that was a quote. As (almost) is: “He’s not an expert, he’s a very naughty boy.” 😉

Regards.

Thanks guys for all your answers 😉

OK somebody has to ask;)
What is the identity of the pilot doing his ‘walk round’ on the 2 seater in photo No 2.

cheers baz