werner von braun

JB: In the early 50s, didn’t the US fund some RAF purchases of UK built aircraft? No. Most, and for exports/licences, such as Aquilon.
Colaga: US’ 1946 gouge is a myth. They gave us 50 years, at an interest rate (effective, net of a holiday) <2%, to repay $3.75Bn (to which Canada added $1.25Bn. – enormous, per capita). Wingeing about it not being (another) Grant, we used an “extraordinary circumstances” clause to take dwells – Korea and later – so that we retired it in 2006. (We did lose much of it by trying to comply with £ convertibility, imposed as a condition of the Loan; that and using some for Virginia baccy meant not a lot of “Reconstruction”.)

Grants were the basis of ERP (Marshall Aid) 1948-51, MDAP and MSP 1951-55. Those programmes tooled up such plants as Chester (MSP-funded Venoms) (and in France, and in W.Germany), which since 1972 have been used for Airbus work, which some in US see as their subsidy of us taking their jobs.

anyway, back to the nitty gritty 😉 von Braun only went to the biggest chequebook because America was screwing UK for all the cash it could squeeze out of us 😉

Yeah, that’s right, America financed its space program with UK money!:rolleyes:
FDR told me the only reason we entered the war was to make some fast bucks. He figured they’d just raise fag taxes and the UK populace would never notice. 😀

Considering the amount of UK debt the US wrote off and the last payments were only recently made, if that’s where the money came from… I doubt if the US would have reached the moon in ’69.:D

BTW: In the early 50s, didn’t the US fund some RAF purchases of UK built aircraft?

anyway, back to the nitty gritty 😉 von Braun only went to the biggest chequebook because America was screwing UK for all the cash it could squeeze out of us 😉

Von Braun was a driven man like John Bull… they cared little for politics or military potential… they just built rockets/guns respectively. If Von Braun had been Russian he likely would have joined the communist party too just to make working within that environment easier.

Not directly he did not,but some of the info & technology gathered by Russia came from his research

Very little, as far as i know. The only German rocket scientist from Von Brauns team who ended up with the Korolev-scavenging party in Germany in 45/46 was Gröttrup. The Soviets got their V-2 data from the production plant at Mittelwerk, the the Americans got the research and scientific data behind the V-2/A4 when they paperclipped the Peenemünde-gang out.

Interesting trivia about Korolev’s youth: he was born in Zhitomyr, and raised in Nezhyn. The two later Tu-22 bases in Ukraine.

Von Braun was an NSDAP party member since ’37, and from 1940 on Sturmbahnführer with the SS. Apart from political standing, joining the SS did ease missile production since Mittelberg was an SS-ran facility. You bet Wernher knew what was going on there.

Never suspected you would consider the Soviets the ‘right’ side. Besides, Von Braun had nothing to do with Sputnik…

Not directly he did not,but some of the info & technology gathered by Russia came from his research

h of a say in it. Did he run the factory or was he just an R&D guy?
In any event, he was given schedules and goals like any other war factory at the time.

Von Braun was an NSDAP party member since ’37, and from 1940 on Sturmbahnführer with the SS. Apart from political standing, joining the SS did ease missile production since Mittelberg was an SS-ran facility. You bet Wernher knew what was going on there.

I wouldn’t call him a hero or something else, but I respect his contribution to technology and we should accept that he had major influence on the fact that the “right” side won the space race…

Never suspected you would consider the Soviets the ‘right’ side. Besides, Von Braun had nothing to do with Sputnik…

von braun

Thanks everyone for you exellent comments whichever way you view this man (commited nazi?scientist) he was the space programme ,agreed he wasnt too concerned about the slave labour issue during the V1/2 production but did he have any choice in the matter ? had von braun commented about the slave labour and their working conditions ,he could have probably compromised his position and been “dealt with “as it were,his assembled team could have carried on with the work as his contribution had been made (my theory) so i beleive he chose to say nothing and survive,and in those perilous times towards the wars ceassation (with hitler on the rampage )everyone covered their backs im sure, War is appalling,with no perameters at all therefore all is allowable as it were,once the hostilities began no one side fought fairly or with complete honour its how wars, are people must quickly adapt,adjust and with luck ultimately survive,von braun adapted and survived simple as that 😎 😎 😎

Except that von Braun (probably) knew the conditions endured by those forced to build the weapons he used his science to produce.

I doubt if von Braun had much of a say in it. Did he run the factory or was he just an R&D guy?

But he wasn’t directly in charge. That prevents him to be a war criminal.

Agreed. War, of all things, can never really be about good or bad, just better or worse.

Personally I wouldn’t put Wallis in the same category as Braun but then who is to say how Wallis (or any of us) would have behaved if the circumstances were different.

Nice to see you back, Schorsch.

I rarely click in this subforum.

Interesting statistics. Where did you get them from, may I ask?

German Wikipdeia entry.

Interesting. There’s a long way to go there, but it’s hardly surprising, and I’d not turn to a Uni for moral toughness.

The Technical University of Berlin was founded under the special allowance of the British occupation (Berlin was until 1990 formally not part of Western Germany). It is written in the founding rules of the university that no weapon research is allowed at the TU Berlin.

Except that von Braun (probably) knew the conditions endured by those forced to build the weapons he used his science to produce.

But he wasn’t directly in charge. That prevents him to be a war criminal. From the moral point of view I agree and I think WvB could have done more to alleviate this issue. However, I must confess I haven’t spent enough time studying his works. I may add that the whole issue with forced labor is a (sadly) bigger topic today than was in the 60ies. Think: that were the days when German fighter bombers were supposed to use American nukes in combat under the command of former Wehrmacht officers.

Except that von Braun (probably) knew the conditions endured by those forced to build the weapons he used his science to produce.

Not to overly defend him…but

I doubt if von Braun had much of a say in it. Did he run the factory or was he just an R&D guy?
In any event, he was given schedules and goals like any other war factory at the time.
It’s not like he could go to the MD and say…

“Adolph, you know they’ve been working hard…Let’s give them a nice Christmas bonus…and let’s add some cheery wallpaper to the caves.”

I think the essence of the matter is that von Braun was no more a war criminal than Barnes Wallis. All he was was a scientist working for his country’s war effort as was Barnes Wallis.

Except that von Braun (probably) knew the conditions endured by those forced to build the weapons he used his science to produce.

I think the essence of the matter is that von Braun was no more a war criminal than Barnes Wallis. All he was was a scientist working for his country’s war effort as was Barnes Wallis.

Who said what?

Goering:
“Naturally the common people don’t want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.”

Churchill:
“History is written by the victors.”

“History will be kind to me for I intend to write it”

Jewish psychologist Gustave Gilbert didn’t think Goering was ‘clinically insane’. There’s a lot of things he could be acused of, but I’m not aware that insanity is one. I’d be interested in hearing of a clinical diagnosis. It’s notable no defence of insanity was considered during his trial, as one piece of evidence.

Nice to see you back, Schorsch.

Bomber command hit primarily large cities after realizing they couldn’t hit anything else at night. Small or hidden cities remained more or less protected, at least to RAF night bombers. The RAF choose its targets according to their abilities, which one might consider a reasonable choice. That they didn’t really hit any important industry, and if purely by chance, was known to the bomber command and accepted.

Broadly correct, of course; but the specific omissions are important. Such as the raids on a place called Pennemunde, which slowed up development of the V-1 and V-2 as well as the Me-163.

Likewise it’s important to recognise that as the war progressed everyone knew that bombing would destroy unprotected industry. The threat alone is effective and diverted hard needed resources; tunnelling and Flak in Germany, moving an entire industry past the Urals in Russia, camouflage etc. by everyone and in places like the mainland USA and Australia, efforts to conceal and defend manufacturing that was never actually threatened. That’s all people, guns and money not applied to the front line.

About 12000 died while producing the weapon, compared to round-about 8000 victims of the weapons itself. The only weapon ever I guess that cost more life in production than in actual service.

Interesting statistics. Where did you get them from, may I ask?

As to ‘expensive weapons’ there’s a fair number of others that aren’t good looking in the balance. Most people forget that war is ensuring your enemy makes more mistakes than you (wars are lost, not won) and being able to ‘pay’ more than you can afford. Britain bankrupted itself, the US became a military-industrial complex, Germany used every trick and numerous immoral activities but lost, as did Japan, and Russia used people like coal.

A bit sad that he is a no-no person in Germany. Although his dubious contribution to the war, he didn’t behave much different than the majority of the people here. The university where he studied and made his PhD (which happens to be my Alma Mater, too), doesn’t lose a single word anywhere about him.

Interesting. There’s a long way to go there, but it’s hardly surprising, and I’d not turn to a Uni for moral toughness.

There is no point in looking at the actions of either sides, (during the war),from a modern day perspective, attitudes have changed hugely, most of us debating this issue have never, and will never live through such horror; who are we to judge?

It’s human nature to judge and we can only look at historical events with modern eyes, but it’s part of the task of studying history to understand and be aware of contemporary mores, expectation and so forth. Hardly worth giving up. Atrocities cannot be excused ‘because they started it’; but that fact can be used to explain why things happened.

As Senator John McCain said referring to Guantanamo Bay, “When I was in Vietnam, one of the things that sustained us as we underwent torture, is the knowledge that if we had our positions reversed, we would not impose that kind of treatment on them. It’s not about the terrorists, it’s about us. It’s about what kind of country we are.” That’s a critical point, even though there’s a lot of grey in McCain’s position and the US’s etc… (Ooops. Countdown to thread lock…)

The V2 like its predecessor the V1 were designed as terror weapons, “vengeance weapons”; they were cowardly weapons not aimed at troups, but at their loved ones, and at no risk to the user (other than it falling over).

Why did Britain invest a single pound in Lancaster bombers instead of sending its brave troops in masses ashore in France in 1940? All cowards? Instead bombing Fritz’ beloved Eva while he conquers the rest of Europe?

If Albert Speer, and Rudolf Hess, were indicted, and convicted of war crimes(the latter having spent most of the war a prisoner in England), then Von Braun should have joined them, in the dock.

Speer and Hess were high Nazi officials, v. Braun was an engineer. With your logic the inventors of the atomic bomb would have been imprisoned.

I believe that Göring is quoted as saying ,that the victors will write history; had they have won the war, the likes of Roy Chadwick would have almost certainly met a similar fate.

You just proved Göring right, which is actually sad, as Göring was clinically insane.

There is no point in looking at the actions of either sides, (during the war),from a modern day perspective, attitudes have changed hugely, most of us debating this issue have never, and will never live through such horror; who are we to judge?

Depends. We start getting into trouble when we apply standards that would even today not apply in the Western world. We seem to agree that carpet bombing wasn’t exactly nice, and moreover the V-2 was even less useful as strategic military weapon, and even designed as “terror weapon”. But if you are claiming that v. Braun should be imprisoned, you need to go over to Lockheed Martin or any other company actually producing weapons for a war. The F-105 killed more civilians than military personal during the raids on North Vietnam. Was the senior management of Republic convicted of war crimes?

Schorsch said…..

“I just don’t like this black/white painting or terror weapon versus glorious RAF carpet bombing. Surely, the RAF carpet night bombing was intended to destroy the industry, but fell back to simple city flattening just because anything else was either too costly (day bombing) or simply not possible.”

Remember who started the glorious carpet bombing? Guernica? Rotterdam? Coventry? Don’t remember the RAF being involved in those. Vergeltungswaffe? Revenge or reprisal for what? The fact that the megalomaniac who led Germany to war was losing?

Germany prosecuted the war in the most ruthless manner possible. Far too many apologists for historians are only too eager to criticise the Allies for adopting a similarly ruthless approach.

The fields of Europe have been littered with the corpses of both Wermacht and Allied personnel. The Germans lie there as a result of conquest, the Allies as a result of liberation. If you can’t see the difference then what hope is there for the future?

regards,

kev35

“We Never Closed”

The V2 like its predecessor the V1 were designed as terror weapons, “vengeance weapons”; they were cowardly weapons not aimed at troups, but at their loved ones, and at no risk to the user (other than it falling over)

The Windmill theatre comes to mind. 🙂

So, you cannot hit any useful target, but you can aim specifically at civilians? I didn’t know the V-2 was so precise. When they hit a factory it was collateral damage I guess.

I never said that they couldn’t be aimed at industrial targets, just that they weren’t; London, wasn’t a centre of manufacturing, in the same way thay other cities in the UK were, but thats where they ended up.

The V2 like its predecessor the V1 were designed as terror weapons, “vengeance weapons”; they were cowardly weapons not aimed at troups, but at their loved ones, and at no risk to the user (other than it falling over)

If Albert Speer, and Rudolf Hess, were indicted, and convicted of war crimes(the latter having spent most of the war a prisoner in England), then Von Braun should have joined them, in the dock.

I believe that Goerring is quoted as saying ,that the victors will write history; had they have won the war, the likes of Roy Chadwick would have almost certainly met a similar fate.

There is no point in looking at the actions of either sides, (during the war),from a modern day perspective, attitudes have changed hugely, most of us debating this issue have never, and will never live through such horror; who are we to judge?