How many Hawker Hunters for the RAF?

Most fun is, logically-founded, to offer alternatives to conventional wisdom. So, for example, always look at what did not happen.

Duncan Sandys, Churchill’s son-in-law, did all the dirty deeds (Sandys-storm), took odium, yet never wrote his memoirs. Many lesser folk did, like Maudling (Minister of Supply who chopped V.1000/VC7). Why not?

1. In 1938 DS had been anti-Appeasement when (RAB) Butler had been pro-.
2. Shinwell, 1919 convicted Bolshevik, the Labour Minister of Defence had launched so many 1951 aircraft and GW, contracted into production by Minister of Supply DS. All well done…except Manny’s vision was blurred by drift, Spec shortfall, budget overrun on DS’ watch (Hunter, for example, chosen by US as founding kit for new Luftwaffe…who had to settle for 300 CL-13A/B Sabres.)
3. Chancellor of the Exchequer Macmillan, 1955-56, saw the Defence budget as unaffordable – “it is breaking our back…we get no defence from it”…but who bore much responsibility for that? 1951-52 Minister of Defence Churchill, icon for all Tory candidate MPs; 1952-54 Minister of Defence Alexander, hero, ex-Monarchs’ right hand as Governor General of Canada, with/for whom Macmillan and CAS Dickson had worked in Italy, 1944; and 1954-55 Minister of Defence Macmillan; and 1951-54 Minister of Supply DS.
4. When Eden tottered, Mac rather than RAB for PM would be better for DS. So he took the flak, Mac the credit for releasing money so the electorate never had it so good by the 1959 Election, protected by the (not at all) Independent Deterrent. An aura of governing competence. Wholly undeserved. Best not try to write it up.

The research is half the fun the other half is being able to jump in on someones thread and answer their question.

Thanks Ken, looks like I have some research to do!:eek:

Not copping out of a reply, just saying you will not trace a file with a funded policy of quantity X Hunters. However “rough” Newforest’s 893, you will not find that number as a plan, either. It all evolved, like Topsy, just as no plan will be found for 22,000 Spit/Seafires.

You have chosen 1953 for your question. In 1952 Churchill ceased being his own Minister of Defence and put in Earl Alexander of Tunis, who did not adapt well to the political/budget/negotiation role. CAS Dickson was buying for a conscript Force, to be led by the MBF Deterrent. Neither the V-S nor the Hawker day fighter was doing well, 1953, and the night fighter, just selected as Javelin, not DH.110, was doing yet worse. Enter US AI on NF Meteors, and Canadair Sabres – 441 of them! The inherited Plan was c.12 Eastern UK Fighter Command bases, c.6 RAFG fighter bases, most co-locating 1 day and 1 night Sqdn, defending cities: so jets, with modest payload/range, at N.Weald/W.Malling. With MSP funding he ordered Mks.1/2 Swift and Mks.1/2 Hunter, to be rolled over for Mks.3/4 and 4/5…but with no intention of operating the later Marks concurrently with the earlier, and in anticipation that one type would fail.

Instructions to industry begin with ITP for a batch of long-lead materials; that “order” was then examined by Materials Committees where UK/US/Canada Defence Depts. juggled priorities for, say, aluminium extrusions as between F-84F, F-86D, Sabre 4, Swift, Hunter…etc. Almost daily, production plans changed. Industry would next get instructions to assemble basic materials into sub-assemblies, and at this stage serial numbers might be assigned and a spares ratio defined. Next would come a production order, maybe priced, maybe not yet. It is the cancellations here that may appear in reggie lists, or may be replaced by later Marks. (My preference for Hunter is F.K.Mason, PSL, 1985. That has only 50 cancelled F.6; others were “diverted” in build to other MSP or Allied users.)

Hence me asking “when” for your “originally”. Macmillan became Minister of Defence in 1954 to find fighters “in a sad state of confusion”. Dickson, on way to CDS, advised that Reservists would not be able to handle complex jets, and that the nuclear bomber would always get through. That, and drying up of MSP after Korean Armistice, not the Sandys storm, led to disbanding RAuxAF, downsizing Fighter Command, junking of low-time Hunter F.1/2, 4/5, and delivery of new F.6 to languish long in MUs. RAF Air Defence job became simply to cover MBF launch.

Cheers Ken, but how much cancellation? Are there any numbers from the early 50s (pre 1953) of how many Hunters the RAF were to have?

200 Hunter Mk1 + 200 Hunter Mk2 + 500 Swifts gives a total of 900 fighters of that Generation for the RAF?:confused:

SLL: when, “originally”? 20/10/50 (Korea then being a Civil War) 200 Hunter F.1 ordered from HAL and 200 F.2 from AWA; 11/50 100 Swift (TBA,F-1-F.4) ordered from V-S. First flight Hunter (proper) 20/7/51, Swift (proper) 1/8/51. 14/2/51 (Korea then being rehearsal for WW3) Attlee agrees £4.7Bn Defence, 1951-3; Bevin et.al. resign, Attlee loses 26/10/51 Election. 10/10/51 all US Aid, civil and military conflated into MSP and bottomless funds cascade to UK. Swift, yes Swift, selected as NATO-standard, to be built at Short’s, Fokker. Both types 13/3/52 nominated for Super-Priority access to materials.

As 1953 unrolls, both fail. Much cancellation.

I based my calculations on this web site describing the numbers built and destination of each mark.

http://www.vectorsite.net/avhunt_2.html#m1

According to the RAF history site about the Hunter 200 hundred examples were ordered of both the Mk1 and the Mk2, for a total of 400.

http://www.raf.mod.uk/history_old/hunter1.html

So what was the original planning for the type? How many were envisioned?:confused:

Ps. Thanks for the reply Newforest.

I have a rough calculation of 893 Hunters for the R.A.F. Any other offers?