skythe:

“20 attempted suicide bombings since October 4th. Those are the numbers presented by the Shin Bet chief in the Knesset a few days ago. See this. Take a look at the last paragraphs, no apologies for our own scum.”

ok, nice to see some numbers, but that by itself is still unconclusive. before the wall went up, what was the average number of attempted suiced bombing pervented by the IDF? what were the number of attampts and attacks at this time last year? the ‘success’ of the fence/wall could still just be the result of reduced activities by attackers.

also, since ‘around 70% of suicide bombers are israeli arabs living within israel’, who does a fence stop them? (yeah of course the fence can make it more difficult to get the explosive belts into israeli territory, but it is still reletively easy to do so, expecially if the belts are sent as parts instead of assmbled units, so little effect there.)

“I could not care less. There was a point in time the Nazi party spoke for Germans. Doesn’t give it the slightest bit of legitimacy.”

thats a common misconception of many westerners. the Nazi party WAS the legitimate ruling government for germany before and during the WWII period. that is a fact. hitler was voted into office by legitimate democratic process and he enjoyed an approval rating that would put most other elected leaders to shame. its just sad that ppl are so affraid of the truth that they have to distort the facts and even lie to protect their own dream reality of what the world can be like. 🙁

as for whether or not arafat is still in touch with popular palestinian opinion, well i would think that is sth an jew should pay great attention to. especially so if my suspitions are right (that popular palestinain opinion is more radical then the current palestinian autority).

“Besides, the Palestinian Authority is recognized world over as the sole represetative of the Palestinian people. in Europe, in the Arab World, in the US and in the UN. It is not unreasonable to ask them to abide by the agreements they have signed.Either that or step down. Neither Israel, nor anyone else, has to sort out the various Palestinian factions and decide who this week’s representative is.”

so now ‘democracy’ and ‘the will of the ppl’ no longer have any meaning when it comes to the palestinians? :rolleyes:

if arafat is out of touch with popular palestinian opion, then his grip on power would weaken with time. if i am right and he is actally representing the less radical side of palestinian opion then that is even more reason for israel to help arafat stay in power, because if his government falls, it could be replaced by an even more anti-jewish group, and then it would be much much harder for peace to come to the middle east!

“But there has to be a reciprocal effort. Without the Palestinians beginning to show the slightest effort, which to this point they haven’t, Israeli concessions will be short-lived.”

please do not pretend like its only israel that has made ‘good will’ guestures and attempts towards peace. and when u’re going through all the palestinain ‘attempts’ towards peace to ‘prove’ how they were only ‘staged to releave international pressure’ and how they weren’t ‘sincere’, just try and used the same spectical reasoning to examin all of israel’s ‘consessions’.

the scare in the hearts of jews and arabs was not carved in a day, so wouldnt it seem ‘hopeful’ to expect it to heal in a day? there are and always be synics and secptics on both sides, any move by one side towards peace will always to look upon in the worst possible light by those ppl. if u do not have enough patients and give up too soon, then u will only ‘prove’ those ppl right and make it harder for the masses to keep faith with u the next time.

“You repeatedly expect the addressing of Palestinian grievances. But those cannot come at the expense of Israeli interests, first and foremost our own safety. “

safety i agree with, but u wouldnt give up a tiny bit of israeli interests to benefit the arabs a great deal? god knows who this thing keeps on escalating.:rolleyes:

“What’s the point in releasing prisoners, like the 300 released 3 month ago, if nothing is done to prevent them from resuming their old habits of shooting up motorists?”

well i doubt that ‘concession’ threatened israeli security that much. the vast majority of those 300 prosioners were schedualed to be realesed soon anyways, and many is not most were detained under questional circumstances and for very little reason to begin with.

“Right, you mean like Rabin who signed the Oslo accords, who allowed the creation of a Palestinian Authority, a creation of a 45,000 strong armed police force, and all he got in return is repeated suicide bombings of Israeil buses? Rabin and later his successor Peres did not halt negotiations after each attack. No, they pleaded, begged with the Palestinian Authority to do something about the Hamas and Islamic Jihad, and all they got in return was the finger. Did you know, Plawolf, that after the assassination of Rabin in November 1994, Peres enjoyed such popularity that despite a in which year he could have held in office he opted for early elections in April 1995? He would have won, if not for three suicide bombers in March which killed 60 Israeli, and his support with them. It is a naive mistake to think that all it takes is just giving a little more, that this would be all it takes for peace to arrive. Your suggestions are nothing more than wishful thinking, a politically correct illusion that people will “see the light” if only they were given a chance. There is a name for that, it’s called appeasement. It doesn’t work. “

:rolleyes: gezz. might i suggest u read more carefully form now on? did u miss the part where is said that ‘israeli needs to respond aggressively to attacks’?

is it so hard for u lot to just take the middle line instead of jumping from one extreme to the other? 🙁

“Terrorism does not spring out of the ground, it is the work or rational calculating men, who decide to undertake in murder. There are a lot of desperate people on this planet, but most of those that kill themselves don’t do it with a whole host of others.”

instead of making already desperate ppl even more desperate and angery, wouldnt trying to give them a little hope and justice work better? i thought it would have been common knowlegde by now that if u want to make a wolf into a dog, u dont force him into a corner and poke him with a stick. u give him food, but beat his a$$ when he thinks he’s the boss and asks for too much, u do that over a period of time and he’ll learn. and thats just how u deal with an animal, humans usually learn much quicker. :rolleyes:

“Your poor, pitiful suicide bomber does not wake up one day to find an explosive belt has suddenly sprouted out of the ground. It takes someone to assemble the bomb, someone to fund it, someone to recruit the bomber, someone to train him, someone to chose the target, someone to transport him across the border, and finally someone to grlorify him and set the stage for the next attack. None of these are so “desperate” to kill themselves, are they? These men have to be fought, there is no alternative, they will not disappear into thin air just because we will it. “

again, ur missing the point, and by a long way at that. all the points i suggested is intended to work on the suicide bombers to be, not the orgainisers. sure there are alot of ‘die hards’ out there who will never be statified, but they are still the manority. the ‘footsoilders’ – the ppl that do all the fighting and dying, want alot less. even if u cant satify all their wants, all u need is to give them some hope and lot of them will not be so willing to die – because they can and will cling onto the hope that there is another way of getting what they want without needing to die.

without the ppl willing to fight and die, the ‘die hards’ wont be able to get much done themselves. thats how terriorst orgs like the IRA can be defeated.

“Again, wishful thinking. Hizbullah is still around because it is unwilling to relinquish it’s power. Israel withdrew from South Lebanon nearly four years ago, and yet the Lebanese army has yet to deploy to South Lebanon because of the Hizbullah. What “underlying grievences” does it serve? The Shebba Farms? Don’t make me laugh, a meaningless piece of land one could cross in 5 minutes and which even the UN has certified Israel is currently under no obligation to turn over to Lebanon. Oh no, the Hizbullah wants to mold Lebanon the way it sees fit, and that’s why it’s still around.”

and how many suicide bombings do hizbullah conducted? like u said, they have their own motives and goals, they are just using the palestinain cause as a flag to draw in supporters. the reason they can do that is because there is a cause that ppl are willing to fight and die for. but if u show the ppl that they can achieve their goal throw peaceful means without needing to risk life and limb, most would just stay home and not get involved. without supporters willing to die, hizbullah will no longer have a reason to fight israel. it will move on to sth different.

lets get one thing straignt here, im not suggesting a way to defeat galobal terrisim, just giving u a suggestion of how israel can reduce the effectiveness of terrism in its territory and hopefully forve it to find another flag.

“Allow me to return to pre-independece Israel. Do you know how the Irgun finally ceased to exist? Even with the declaration of Israeli independence and the formation of the IDF, the supposed addressing of its grievances, the Irgun refused to break up. Shortly later an Irgun weapons ship by the name of Altalena docked at the beach. In a show off between an IDF force (incidently led by Rabin) and the Irgun, the IDF sunk the ship, killing 19 people. All this was done while the Egyptian army was closing on Tel Aviv, and the IDF needed both the men and equipment. Thus came end of the Irgun. Thus Ben Gurion established a single force under a single command under a single government. The disarmament of the Hamas and Islamic Jihad are first and foremost in interest of any sane individual who wishes both the promotion of peace and the establishment of a free Palestinian society. “

forgive me for being synical, but that just seems like Rabin seizing an opportunity to take out a potential rival and secure his grip on power. :rolleyes: things like this happen all the time.

“Many people have suffered injustice. Very few of them kill themselves with a whole host of others. The fact that they find some urge “irresistable” means they should be locked up, that the entire infrastructure that allows they to carry out this sickness should be broken up.”

give me a break! u do realise that there are varying degrees of injustice right? its one thing to have u neighbour park on ur side of the driveway and quite another to have ur son shot in the streets for the sole reason of being at the wrong place at the wrong time. it u ask alot of the jewish settlers who have lost childern to suiced bombers, im sure u’ll find quite a few who find the notion of ‘getting their own back’ on palestinains ‘irresistable’, and suprise suprise, many of them may choose to join the IDF. should those ppl also be locked up and the IDF be broken up?:rolleyes:

“Yes, a way should be found to address legitimate grievances. This in no way means that Israel should accept a state whereby it’s citizens are deemed fair game. “

well, if u did adequetly address the legitimate gravences of the palestinians, then purhaps u’ll find that jews are no longer considered ‘fair game’ by them (the vast majority of them at least).

“What is the basis for that assertion? In the 27 years prior to the Oslo Accords and formation of the Palestinian Authority there was not one single suicide bombing. These begun only when Israel withdrew from Palestinian regions, only when at the helm of the Israeli government stoodf people who were all about giving Palestinians hope, people like Rabin, Peres and Beilin. You are watching the world through rose-tainted glasses. Suicide bombings begun not because the Palestinians were suddenly deprived of hope. On the contrary – the Hamas begun its terror campaign to deny the possiblity or reconciliation, to prevent peace, not to further its cause! Terrorism grew not because hope diminished, but in order to deny it. Even if you do believe that Israel has to address Palestinian grievances, there is no alternative to actively taking these people on. None. “

my my my, next u’ll be suggesting that all arabs be made to wear ‘the half-moon of mahamed’ and that they should be sent to camps where they can no longer pose a threat to no one but themselves……. sound familiar? :rolleyes:

do remeber who were living there before the ‘UN’ decided to establish the state of israel. the palestinains expected the world to give them back what was once their’s. they clinged onto that hope and endured for years, but after the oslo accourds they realised that they were never going to get what the expected. far from giving them hope, it destroyed any hope that was left in them.

there is prospect for peace today because after all these years, the palestinains realise that they will never get back everything that was taken from them, and now their expectations are much more ‘realistic’.