141 Squadron Defiant pictures

Cheers Geoff, much appreciate the search, thanks.

Martyn 

GYD

I managed to dig out my copy of the Air Britain file on the Defiant – small archeological excavation in itself.  General text is similar to the Crowood Turret Fighter book. It does list the airframes individually:

L7015 – c/n 66 deld to 19MU 14.5.40; 264 Sqn 31.5.40; Stn Flt Turnhouse 5.7.40; 141 Sqn 6.7.40; on first disastrous operation and shot down by Bf 109 off Folkestone, 19.7.40; PO R.Kidson, Sgt F.P.J. Atkins missing

Appendix V – Defiants Received Unit by Unit

– this has list of serial numbers (i.e. airframe, not squadron code letter)

A quick look through the book shows no additional photos of 141 Sqn, not even the ones discussed above; though there are certainly lots of photos of the other squadrons – day and night camouflage. The front cover painting does show a pair of 141 Sqn Defiants – TW squadron code, but no individual letters.

Good luck with the search,

…geoff

Hi TempestV,

No, unfortunately I don’t, are these readily available to view, i.e. on ‘t’net or, hard bound good old fashioned books? 

Could be a very interesting lead to follow, many thanks,

Martyn

GYD  

Hi GYD,

Do you have the Air Britain file on the Defiant? 

I recall browsing through it once and remember there were serials listed against each squadron.

Hi Geoff,

Thank you for that information,  I too happened across that picture of TW-P and I also have JDR Rawlings tomes, (both Fighter Squadrons and Bomber Squadrons), that was my first port of call and these are a ‘must have’ in any individual’s library! 

I have also seen the two entries of the last links, it is always nice to see that an individual who gave their life for the future of others is rewarded with a road named after them.    

However, as I said in an earlier post, I think with all the scant available information of the published ‘web based’ material that everyone has greatly identified, I’m hoping for a family member of an ex-serving BoB 141 squadron ‘Erk’ to perhaps come up trumps but, that does not detract from all the help every one on the thread has contributed so far, at least I now have the names of those in the picture (thanks Mothminor) and I look forward to receiving my copy of that book in due course.  The hunt continues!

Many thanks guys,

Martyn

GYD

Re. the photo of TW-O and the gunners, “Turret Fighters” does give the names – Len Bowman, Ernie Salway, Alf Cumbers, Gerry Holton, Wally Mott, Sandy Powell, Dave Ashcroft and John Townsend.

Alec Brew recently published a small paperback book: “Boulton Paul Defiant – An Illustrated History” – short history text but with lots of photos.  141 Squadron features on a number of photos:
– p.44 TW-P (L7000) in day fighter colours
Also here online:
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/7d/31/42/7d31423ed3f65cece69d77a2a19c9e2…

– p.74 TW-L (N1752) in night fighter colours
As a profile:
https://imodeler.com/uploads/2016/06/editor-160628-57725ef48bb2b-1024×6…

An older book, John Rawling’s “Fighter Squadrons of the R.A.F. and their Aircraft” (c.1969) shows no photos of 141 Sqn Defiants, and only has a single code-letter amongst it’s list of squadron aircraft rego’s:
– TW-H (L7036)

Defiant – The True Story (John Chambers)
– TW-W (N1795)
Photo of it flipped on its back after force-landing at Watling Street 22-Jan-41

Battle Over Britain by Francis Mason (1969) lists the Defiants lost that day Cat.3(Lost or Destroyed) as:
L6974, L6995, L7015 (P/O R.Kidson/Sgt F.P.J. Atkins), L7016, 7009, L7001.
Unfortunately, no individual aircraft letters were listed.

Have you seen this website:
http://www.bbm.org.uk/airmen/Atkins.htm
http://www.bbm.org.uk/airmen/Kidson.htm

…geoff

Hi cabbage,

Indeed, I think it was probably more important to note the individual serials of the aircraft lost, rather than squadron codes.  However, the Squadron operational records (F-540), may list more detailed information dependant on the individual entering the records in the first instant.  This has apparently been looked at down at Kew, by a fellow enthusiast I am working with on this ‘endevour’. 

I am hoping that there are still perhaps, one or, two ex-141 squadron members or, at least surviving relatives that may have a few ‘dog eared’ black and white pictures of ‘What Grandad did in the war’.

Fingers crossed!

GYD

Glad to be of some help.

Incidently I checked my copy of “The Battle of Britain, Then and Now” (an original 1st issue), but it only gives the serial numbers, crew names, and crash locations for each of the unfortunate aircraft. I’m wondering if in those heady days of 1940, there wasn’t time to note all the individual codes that were applied.

Indeed, I noticed the gas patch too, but with having no other details with the picture in SAM, I was unsure as to who the individuals were although, you can make out the single aircrew brevet on their tunics but, I wasn’t sure if it was before or, after the 19th July, that’s answered one question then!

GYD 

Hi GYD,

Your mention of that picture rang a bell. It also appears in the afore mentioned book.

Its caption states that the airmen are some of the surviving gunners, posing, shortly after the events of the 19th July.  Unfortunately the picture doesn’t show the serial number, but does seem to show a “gas” detection patch on the port wing root.

Purely by chance and looking for something completely different, I came across a letter to the editor of ‘Scale Aircraft Modelling’ of June 2000, with a photograph of one of 141’s Defiant’s with several airman posing on the wing and against the fuselage coded TW-O but, the author unfortunately did not know the serial.  He also lists a few other aircraft serial/code combinations but, sadly not the particular aircraft I seek!  I will now trawl through my library of SAM to see if I can find the original letter that prompted this response.

GYD

Sorry, GYD. I haven’t found any more info other than what you already know.

Cheers Cabbage, I’ll try and seek that book out, I have one or, two of the series but, not that one!

GYD

In “Defiant, Bleheim, and Havoc Aces” from the Osprey series of books, there is a reasonable picture of N1752 coded TW-L, in overall black scheme.

There are also coloured drawings it, and of N1564  TW-T  in normal camouflage markings.

Hope this is of some help.

Many thanks Mm, much appreciated.

Martyn

GYD

I haven’t found any reference to a 141 Squadron Association, GYD. If I’ve understood things correctly, Don Aris’s History of 141 Squadron wasn’t actually published but is held by the IWM (in 3 ringbinders). Unfortunately, it isn’t available online. I’ll have another check through my books tomorrow to see if there’s any reference to P/O Kidson.

Hi Mothminor,

Thanks for the lead, I have just brought a copy of said book off good old ‘e(vil)-Bay! 

The information I am particularly looking for, is related to a New Zealand pilot, P/O Kidson who, was sadly killed on the 19th July 1940 flying Defient L7015 (along with many other members of 141 sqn on that fateful day).   I am trying to match a code letter to that particular aircraft and any other ‘nose art/names’ that may well have been applied.

Is there a 141 Squadron association?

GYD

I’ve looked hopefully through my books on the Scottish airfields which 141 were involved with  – only one photo there but it doesn’t actually show the squadron code so may be just a stock photo. However, “The Turret Fighters – Defiant and Roc” by Alec Brew (Crowood Aviation) features several from the personal collection of the squadron historian, Don Aris.