161 RAF Hudson ops

Hi Allan.
“You need to look for information about an Abwehr operation called Operation North Pole – led by a Herman Giskes I believe.” Herman G North Pole otherwise known as The England Spiel. The one that was tried AFTER the crash of my uncle’s a/c was the Saskia Spiel – this one, thankfully, didn’t work.
There are a lot of strange coincidences in the downung of Ian’s a/c. 1 The German says they were waiting. 2 They were picked up on Radar = normally they would have been so low they would have ‘jumped’ the causeway leading into the Ijselmeer. 3 Only one of the crew/agents suffered gunshot wounds and was shot through the head. 4 This was the agent whose radio was used for the Saskia Spiel.

Wow, that is low, less that 123 metres!!!

I doubt keeping your head down would matter much. It is the canopy that is more likely to come in contact with the tail assembly due to the engine’s slipstream. I wonder if they used extra long static line cords or something.

Thanks for that info James, it is really scary to think about it. The ground must come up awfully fast at that height, and in the dark over occupied territory, no thanks mate.

He only ever jumped with a drag line and they did it from as low an altitude as possible, in order to get on the ground as quickly as possible. Any time spent dangling on a chute was considered to be time when you were likely to be either spotted or shot at or possibly both. On operations they jumped from – and I quote – “less than the height of Salisbury Catherdral spire”.

I dare say that the danger of hitting the tail would have been apparent enough to anyone, such that they would keep their head down on exiting the aircraft.

Really interesting topic this one.

I’m rather surprised James D that your Dad parachuted from the door of a Hudson. Can you please ask him whether it was using a static line chute, or whether they might have used freefall please.

As parachutes used to be part of my trade in the RNZAF I have some experience with the mechanics of them, so I’d be interested to know how risky jumping from a Hudson door would have been. I’m certain the likelihood of snagging the canopy on the tail was a high risk, and I wonder if they had anti-snag bars attached (you see this on a lot of aircraft – (the RNZAF Andovers had them fitted to the tails for side-door exits). The Hudson door is very near the tail and the tail is very wide. Yikes.

I’ve read of several incidents where RNZAF Hudsons were no longer capable of flight after combat in the Pacific or running out of fuel and they always seemed to ditch in the sea with crew aboard rather than the crew jumping and abandoning the plane. I don’t know if this is due to their low operational altitude, or if they preferred to keep the crew together for liferaft reasons, or just that it’s more likely you’ll smack into the tail due to slipstream even when using an emergency-escape chute. Any ideas?

Ian’s finding that they exited through the floor on SOE ops seems more likely.

Thanks Alan,
As I’m interested in the same area… ‘SOE in the Low Countries’ (MRD Foot) seems to cover this v. well, but the Giskes ops were (IIRC) over by mid 44. The mess of the SOE ops in the Netherlands is one of the least creditable chapers of British warfare. No deliberate sabotage occourred, but the levels of incompetance were truly stunning. The Dutch weren’t blameless, but the campaign was British (SOE) led, and partly hindered by SIS (MI5). Beware your friends.

Just a minor comment. The Secret Intelligence Service, or SIS, is the service popularly known as MI6. MI5 is the popular name for the Security Service, responsible for counter intelligence within the UK (and these days much more besides!)

1419 Flight, later to become 138 (SD) Squadron with Lysanders.they also operated Whitley Bombers converted to the role of agent dropping, and a Hudson type aircraft was also allocated to the squadron, they were known to have used North Weald and Stapleford Abbots in Essex, Stradishall and Newmarket Suffolk were also used as operating bases.

Thanks Alan,
As I’m interested in the same area… ‘SOE in the Low Countries’ (MRD Foot) seems to cover this v. well, but the Giskes ops were (IIRC) over by mid 44. The mess of the SOE ops in the Netherlands is one of the least creditable chapers of British warfare. No deliberate sabotage occourred, but the levels of incompetance were truly stunning. The Dutch weren’t blameless, but the campaign was British (SOE) led, and partly hindered by SIS (MI5). Beware your friends.

161 squadron and capture of agents

Hi – I had a look at your website and you queried about the Germans knowing that Agents were on board. You need to look for information about an Abwehr operation called Operation North Pole – led by a Herman Giskes I believe. Agents were captured and “turned” so that they transmitted information back to London, and the SOE Dutch section dropped more agents and arms. At least one Agent missed out his “security check” in his messages, only to have London advise him of what he had done – and alerting the Germans to the fact as well. It only closed down when an agent escaped from capture, got back to London and spilled the beans. A lot of agents were executed in Mauthausen. Hope this helps – Allan

No turning over required. That particular bookcase is about two feet from the PC and none of my 1200-odd books are more than about 5 feet away.

I ccan see the headline now. “Well respected forum member crushed by collapse of huge bookcase.” 😀

Many thanks for the help, everyone. FK790 – I’ll be in touch!
Cheers

And what is even better is that you turned your spare room over for the book and I didn’t have to lift a finger!

RESULT!!!!

No turning over required. That particular bookcase is about two feet from the PC and none of my 1200-odd books are more than about 5 feet away. 🙂

Maybe I can help with you questions. i have extensive records for 161 Sqdn including ORB, DZ’s, pilots debriefing notes, agents details etc., pluse I am in contact with 3 ex Hudson pilots + Stirling crews.
I see my web address has already been left www.161squadron.org Drop me a line and I’ll be happy to assist in ay way I can.

And what is even better is that you turned your spare room over for the book and I didn’t have to lift a finger!

RESULT!!!!

Melvyn,

You’re quite right. I had missed it, but there is another ‘chapter’ in the bok, by G/C Hgh Verity, entitled, ‘Pick-up By Hudson’ which gives a fair bit of information on the use of Hudsons by 161 Sqn. Unfortunately, although there is a photo of T9465 ‘Spirit of Lockheed-Vega Employees’ which was operated by 161 Sqn, the photo is of the aircraft during its time with 269 Sqn in Coasta Command. The other photos in the chapter are of Lysanders. :rolleyes: Interestingly, the Lysander photos are from the same file I mentioned earlier, AIR 27/1068. Have you looked at this? There may be other photos of use, perhaps of Hudsons?

There is one interesting mention: “There was provision for small scale parachute operations with a chute through the floor.” So that answers that question!

This is an interesting account, but it runs for six pages, less photos, so it’s too much for me to re-type. It would be well worth obtaining from your lcoal library by inter-library loan. The edition I have was published in 1984 by the Book Club Associates by arrangement with Ian Allan Ltd, but its listed as first published in 1983, presumably by Ian Allan. No ISBN is given.

I’m not sure if this is the book Melvyn is referring to or not, but in Royal Air Force at War edited by ACM Sir Christopher Foxley-Norris is an account by ACM Sir Lewis Hodges entitled, ‘Flying Secret Agents To and From Enemy Territory’. This includes a photo of Halifax II NF-W of No 138 Sqn (no serial given) which comes from AIR 27/1068 at The National Archives. A quick scan of the text indicates that it is almost entirely devoted to Lysander ops and I can see no mention of Hudsons.

That is the book. I think there is another bit in there about bringing V1 information back using Hudsons.

I may be wrong, when I was doing the book reviews for Aeroplane (other listing magazines are available) I read so many books they all merged into one!

No problem, I´ll pass that on.

I should probably speak to my uncle too. They were both in the same outfit, but I don´t know half as much about what they got up to as I probably should.

cheers
James

Dear James,
Many thanks for that. Useful. Do thank your father for me.
Cheers!

Just spoke to him.

His jump from a Hudson was a training jump, in Palestine and so probably no help to you. The Hudson had no turret (he seems to think it was just a transport, but claims to have had other things on his mind at the time, than counting the guns!) I can confirm that he jumped out of the door however.

As I said, he also jumped from a Halifax (through the floor and into Albania) a Wellington during training (forgot that one, but also through the floor) and a Dakota (out the door, obviously and into Greece).

cheers
James

James D,
Yes please! 😀
Any other info also greatfully recieved.

Wow,
Thanks for the speedy replies chaps!

Melv, thanks!

Radar – You see my point! Thanks for the reference though.

Dave and Archie – Yes, familiar with both, which have proven useful. I’ve not contacted Bob Body directly, but I will! For those that haven’t looked at the referred links, they illustrate what I’m interested in – that the 161 Sqn ops were often monitored and either left alone or attacked by the Germans as they wished. Chilling.

Dave, I’m sure that agents (and supplies) were often dropped from Hudsons doing a flyover – landings were usually when there was someone to pick up, and then a co-incident delivery of an outboud agent would be made. I presume (again, no evidence) that supplies were put in cannisters and dropped from the bomb bay. However I’ve found no details of how the agent drops were made. Armament is a clue; the Hudson came with 2 forward firing guns, two in the BP turret (actually fitted in the UK for the original batch) and a gun in a vetral position. I think the RAF generally abandoned the ventral position, but added beam guns. 161 Sqn a/c kept the turret (and thus guns) in the pics I’ve seen, but I would presume (I have no evidence) that all other guns would have been removed as they would have been though of little use. Out the bottom or the door? Dave, good point about the tail. But the hole in the bottom? Still not sure.

Cheers!

My father was in the SOE and jumped (or fell, as he puts it!) out of a Hudson. (He also jumped from a Halifax and a Dakota) I can ask him if he jumped out of the door or through the floor if you like.