1942 design light fleet carrier Vs. Independence class Light carrier

Umm, are you trying to make a point?

Sorry StevoJH,

I guess my dyslexia kicked in…In reading the post by 19kilo10, I read “operated” as “operates”. My apologies.

Housecarl

I agree that is kind of why I started this im just curious how these era ships would hold up

I can’t talk much on What India tactics on using their carrier for wholleout engagement with Pakistan. However for the Indonesian anticipations on taking on Dutch Karel Dorman (from what I read through TNI-AL historical writing) was mainly swarming the Karel Dorman air defences with IL-28 torpedo’s (ie, anti ship IL-28 version), thus lure/engaging on Karel Dorman’s Sea Hawk out from air defense duty. While at pararel time speed the Sverdlov’s Cruiser (KRI Irian ex Orzhokenidze) to taking on Karel Dorman plus their Destroyer escort supporting by large number of Whiskey submarines.

Remembered this based on Sovyet doctrin, and eventhough officially not recognised, it’s not a secret if the West Papua crisis betwen Dutch and Indonesia got hot, the Indonesian Navy flotilla will also included high number of Sovyet ‘advisors’.

Isn’t India already used their Collosus carrier against Pakistan ? I think they used the carrier to support naval blockade.

While Dutch Collosus (Karel Dorman) close to get involved in Naval engagement with Indonesia during West Papua crisis in the 60’s. That time the Indonesian Capital ship would be Sverdlov class cruiser. Now that will be interesting to see if that happen.

After all isn’t the Sovyet design those Sverdlov to take on light carriers like Collosus or Independence (which probably will be escorting supply line in the north Atlantic). I think the concept between Fast Light Cruisers raiders against Light Carriers Escorting trade supply line.

I agree that is kind of why I started this im just curious how these era ships would hold up

I got this idea reading about the what if thread on the RN fleet carrier had they been at Yankee station. Now I think this would be a interesting fight between the greats. I was wondering what others would say for a naval action between India and say Pakistan or Indonesia.. or some other lesser developed country set around the late 60’s or early 70’s or even maybe a commonwealth nation like Australia defending its interests in the South China Sea… or some sort of action around S. and or Latin America, but if they had these ships as their main capital ships.

Isn’t India already used their Collosus carrier against Pakistan ? I think they used the carrier to support naval blockade.

While Dutch Collosus (Karel Dorman) close to get involved in Naval engagement with Indonesia during West Papua crisis in the 60’s. That time the Indonesian Capital ship would be Sverdlov class cruiser. Now that will be interesting to see if that happen.

After all isn’t the Sovyet design those Sverdlov to take on light carriers like Collosus or Independence (which probably will be escorting supply line in the north Atlantic). I think the concept between Fast Light Cruisers raiders against Light Carriers Escorting trade supply line.

The Dedalo (ex USS Cabot) was scrapped in 2002. When she was first transferred to the Spanish Navy, she was operated as an ASW helicopter carrier until after 1972 when Spain started taking deliveries of Harriers.

She was replaced by the locally built STOVL carrier Principe de Asturias (R11) (based on the USN’s 1970s Sea Control Ship design) in 1988 and was struck by the Spanish Navy in August 1989, again operating Harriers and ASW helicopters as well as other helicopters from the Spanish Army or Air Force as well as Navy depending upon the mission.

Umm, are you trying to make a point?

I think the only country that regularly operated jets from a US light carrier was Spain with their “AV-8S Matadores” off Dedalo.

The Dedalo (ex USS Cabot) was scrapped in 2002. When she was first transferred to the Spanish Navy, she was operated as an ASW helicopter carrier until after 1972 when Spain started taking deliveries of Harriers.

She was replaced by the locally built STOVL carrier Principe de Asturias (R11) (based on the USN’s 1970s Sea Control Ship design) in 1988 and was struck by the Spanish Navy in August 1989, again operating Harriers and ASW helicopters as well as other helicopters from the Spanish Army or Air Force as well as Navy depending upon the mission.

I think the only country that regularly operated jets from a US light carrier was Spain with their “AV-8S Matadores” off Dedalo.

Yes… while the Saipan class (2 ships, Saipan & Wright) were designed from the keel-up as carriers, the design process started with the hull and propulsion plant of the Baltimore-class heavy cruisers.

Yes, both were converted in the early 1960’s into command and major communications relay ships and were used as National Emergency Command Post (Afloat) vessels (NECPA).

I also didnt think the Saipan was that much larger….. she must of been a derivative of the Baltimore class.

Yes… while the Saipan class (2 ships, Saipan & Wright) were designed from the keel-up as carriers, the design process started with the hull and propulsion plant of the Baltimore-class heavy cruisers.

Considering the level of potential threat at Yankee Station from both North Vietnam and southern PRC, a Colossus operating a primarily A-4 CAS air wing would probably have been of much more use at Dixie Station off the Mekong Delta for support calls into South Vietnam and Cambodia.

As a side note….

Even with their deck and hangar crowding, the air wing that an SCB-125 refitted Essex/Ticonderoga brought to the field in the mid-1960s was nothing to be sneezed at. Intrepid operating as a CVA in 1966 with Attack Carrier Air Wing 10 (CVW-10) was lugging up to 70 aircraft, mostly either A-1s and A-4s (later deployments had all A-4s for strike) and a squadron or so of F-8/RF-8s and support aircraft.

See…http://www.harpoondatabases.com/encyclopedia/Entry1937.aspx

ETA: And that doesn’t even dwell on the “special munitions” carried or deliverable by that air wing.

Didnt India use Sea Hawks in…..71? Not sure.

What type of Air superiority (jet or prop) could of been operated by the colossus/majestic class though and the Independence class (saipan) in the secnario that a “third world” country had operated them in war against each other.

Depends on the timeframe, but in the early 1960s there were only two options: the A-4E and Etendard IVM/IVP Avon-engined variant.

The Avon Etendard was specifically designed with the Colossus carriers in mind (UK engine and blown flaps for lower landing speed), was offered to the RAN in 1959 (who didn’t follow up due to a lack of funds/test pilots), and did in fact fly as a prototype in 1960. Best option for air defense and recon roles (more thrust than the A-4E and better ranging radar), and superior to the A-4A/B/C in every respect.

The A-4E would be the choice for air-to-ground missions because of its centreline pylon and ability to carry more external fuel. Both aircraft probably even in the anti-shipping department – the A-4E having more fuel, but the Etendard’s Aida radar could come in useful despite its short 12nm range.

As far as second-hand aircraft go, not much available in the early 1960s. The A-4A/B/C was still in front-line service and saw intensive use in Vietnam. Perhaps the F11F Tiger? Would be similar to the Avon Etendard as a fleet defender. The Sea Venom would be just too old.

The RAN Majestic class had Sea Venom & Gannet followed by A4, Tracker & Wessex/Sea King.

Very useful ships when used correctly, especially the classes approaching 30.000ts full. I think operationally they should be viewed as “aviation capable (frigates)” and not outright “aircraft carrier (ship of the line)”, to avoid pressing them into jobs they are not designed for. In my view “Yankee station” would have exactly been such an overtaxing job, as would be any other tasks requiring continuous strike package type operations. Just a question of critical mass. I’d see either (a) reconnaissance and light strike and limited fleet air defence, or (b) ASW as their mission. Not on the same deployment, that is. For (a) I’d typically see multirolers with decent a/a performance, like F4U or Firebrand/Wyvern and later an A4D.

I was always under the impression that the Centaur class was a evolved and enlarged Colossus/Majestic until recently reading some books (Nelson to Vanguard) and more closely on the Wiki article on the 1942 design. I also didnt think the Saipan was that much larger….. she must of been a derivative of the Baltimore class.

What type of Air superiority (jet or prop) could of been operated by the colossus/majestic class though and the Independence class (saipan) in the secnario that a “third world” country had operated them in war against each other. I suspect the 40mm would of been retained or the 3/70 would of been installed and that would of made up the ships main battery, possibly but unlikly a seacat or era appropriate USN BPDMS.

The only advantage the Independence class has was that they were faster.

The 1942 light fleets were wider, longer, could be refit with angled decks and could carry more aircraft. These advantages result from the 1942 Light Fleets being specifically designed as aircraft carriers from the start, from memory the bass hull of the Independence class was a cruiser design (Cleveland class?).

The Independence class were significantly smaller… perhaps the only Vietnam-era jet fighters they could reasonably operate, even if fitted with an angle deck, would be the proposed (but not built) Sea Gnat.

The British Colossus/Majestic class light fleet carriers are better compared to the American Saipan class CVLs.

Independence-class CVL (USN):
Displacement: 11,000 tons (standard); 14,750 tons loaded
Length: 622 ft 6 in (190 m)
Beam: 71 ft 6 in (21.8 m) hull; 109 ft 2 in (33.3 m) over flight deck and projections

Saipan-class CVL (USN):
Displacement: 14,500 tons (standard); 19,000 tons (full load)
Length: 684 ft (208 m)
Beam: 76.8 ft (23.4 m) (waterline); 115 ft (35.1 m) (overall)

Colossus-class CVL (RN):
Displacement: 13,200 tons (standard); 18,000 tons (full load)
Length: 690 ft (210 m) (flight deck); 695 ft (212 m) overall
Beam: 80 ft (24 m); up to 133 ft overall with angled deck

Majestic-class CVL (RN):
as Colossus except Displacement: 15,750 tons (standard); 19,500 tons (full load)

Centaur-class CVL(RN):
Displacement: 22,000 tons (standard); 28,700 tons full load
Length: 737 ft (224.6 m)
Beam: 130 ft (39.6 m); up to 160 ft overall with angled deck

Well……at one time or another they both did pretty much every mission a carrier could do.

that is kind ofwhat I got from the Wiki page. how do you think they would of preformed in action aginst one another…. it might be fair to say that the Colossus/Majestic class might be the most successful carrier design ever built to date. While the Essex was definitely the right ship at the right time, enjoyed a remarkable production line, and they served well; they were too big (costly) for service in other navies.

The only advantage the Independence class has was that they were faster.

The 1942 light fleets were wider, longer, could be refit with angled decks and could carry more aircraft. These advantages result from the 1942 Light Fleets being specifically designed as aircraft carriers from the start, from memory the bass hull of the Independence class was a cruiser design (Cleveland class?).