£195 Million "Bloody Sunday" report out

All part of the service! 🙂

Sorry to be so picky, I was sure it was a typo but I didn’t want anybody to get the wrong end of the stick given the way these sorts of threads polarize opinion.

You were completely correct. Thanks for pointing it out.:)

Sorry to be so picky, I was sure it was a typo but I didn’t want anybody to get the wrong end of the stick given the way these sorts of threads polarize opinion.

No, unless I’m very much mistaken, you seemed to be suggesting only those who wanted Northern Ireland to remain part of the United Kingdom should be prosecuted for ‘killing innocent civilians’. But I’m sure that’s not what you meant.

Rubbish. Read my posts again. You are certainly very much mistaken.

Edit: I see. You are quoting what is obviously a typo on my part, as the rest of my posts indicate. I think it’s pretty obvious I mean Unionists and Republicans, as the rest of my posts indicate. My apologies for any confusion.

I’m going to edit that error so that people do not mistake my viewpoint. Thanks for picking it up Creaking Door.

Isn’t that exactly what I’ve said? :confused:

No, unless I’m very much mistaken, you seemed to be suggesting only those who wanted Northern Ireland to remain part of the United Kingdom should be prosecuted for ‘killing innocent civilians’. But I’m sure that’s not what you meant.

You are entitled to your opnion, of clourse, wilhelm, but whereas I wholly endorse your last sentence, I disagree with your other remarks.

Absolutely, Red. They are only my opinions, formed from personal experience that some others may have used to reach different conclusions in life.

Wilhelm,

Your list is obviously sad to read – 14 families who lost a loved one. But, it is no less or more sad than the list of all other civilans, policemen and soldiers killed in those terrible years by terrorist groups from both sides…..

’tis a sad list indeed that you also posted Bob. I completely and absolutely agree with you. Each person on that list had somebody who loved them and who waited for them to come home the day they never did….. In an ideal world, justice would be served across the divide to any who murdered an innocent. I fear that justice will only be served to some in the next world though…

I also understand the need to answer EGPH, though I fear it then gives the impression of a Balkan-style tit for tat, and which doesn’t then recognize the injustice of this particular event. I must say that I think we all recognize on some level or other that Ireland has had a very raw deal from GB over the centuries, but I now hope that NI can move forward to a glowing era of continued peace.

If we wait long enough, the new generation there will take it forward. Children are amazing creatures. If you feed junk in, you get junk out. I’ve managed so far not to pass on any of my moral defects to my daughter as far as I can tell….

You are entitled to your opnion, of clourse, wilhelm, but whereas I wholly endorse your last sentence, I disagree with your other remarks.

Wilhelm,
No-one disputes that this was a dark day in the history of the British Army and that mistakes were made. Oh for the hindsight and knowledge you express, maybe those in charge wouldn’t have deployed the Paras that day.
Whether soldiers committed perjury – that is between them and whatever god they have to answer to if they are that way inclined. How many top politicians committed perjury at the recent Iraq War inquiry?

The general references to other incidents in NI history were introduced to try and counter the frankly ludicrously skewed version of the “troubles” being posted by EGPH. His statements, bordering on a “the only good British squaddie is a dead British squaddie” mindset, were outrageous and insulting to those of us who have actually experienced the various aspects (NI & mainland bombings, security alerts, personal security etc) of the last 40+ years, either first hand or through relatives and friends.

Your list is obviously sad to read – 14 families who lost a loved one. But, it is no less or more sad than the list of all other civilans, policemen and soldiers killed in those terrible years by terrorist groups from both sides…..

Between 1969 and 2001, 3,526 people were killed as a result of the Troubles.

Approximately 60% of the dead were killed by republicans, 30% by loyalists and 10% by British security forces.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Troubles

Deaths by status of victim
Status No.
Civilian 1855
Members of security forces (and reserves) 1123
of whom:
British Army (excluding Northern Ireland regiments) 502
Royal Ulster Constabulary 301
Ulster Defence Regiment 196
Northern Ireland Prison Service 24
Garda Síochána 9
Royal Irish Regiment 7
Territorial Army 7
English police forces 6
Royal Air Force 4
Royal Navy 2
Irish Army 1
Members of Republican Paramilitary Groups 394
Members of loyalist Paramilitary Groups 151

It is also worth bearing in mind that this was a deeply, politically inspired enquiry and to have found in the British Army’s favour and not to have exonerated those who died, would have been totally unacceptable.

Look Red Hunter, it was always going to be hard to find in favour of armed soldiers firing 100 rounds of 7,62mm NATO into a crowd of unarmed people.

The reason for the enquiry, if we struggle to remain dignified and unpartisanly moral, is that this thing happened. And that the original enquiry couldn’t (wouldn’t) find a verdict of Unlawful Killing. And this has been a source of smoldering resentment since, and a source of international notoriety.

We should always fight injustice, especially in our hearth and home. Next time, it could be yours or my son, daughter, brother or sister.

I personally believe that an injustice has been slightly rectified with the new enquiry. I believe that it was less a political thing, than simply the right thing to do. My big concern is the legal vultures that have enriched themselves over this tragedy.

It is also worth bearing in mind that this was a deeply, politically inspired enquiry and to have found in the British Army’s favour and not to have exonerated those who died, would have been totally unacceptable.

Blue2
It has been suggested that weapons were, er, spirited away from the fallen…

They all might have had a weapon or they all might not have, who knows.

I think that there has been enough covering up over the last 28 years.

The various press photos used at the original enquiry, before and after shots, have already shown certain soldiers guilty of perjury. The testimonies of certain soldiers, as well as eye witnesses, also bear testimony to the fact that the killed were not armed. You may choose to inform yourself about events on this unfortunate day (for both sides), or continue with idle, loose, ill-informed speculation. The material is out there. There is a reason this unfortunate event is notorious world wide.

The fact that many at the front were men is consistent in most countries/cultures in the world IMHO. Certainly all the protest marches I have attended to in an emotional atmosphere have been as such. It is regarded as the fathers or sons job in many cultures to protest against an injustice or iniquity, whether to family or community. And it matters not a whit what their sex is at the end of the day. They were still loved and missed by someone.

It has been suggested that weapons were, er, spirited away from the fallen…

First time I’ve seen a run down of the demonstrators shot that day, it’s a bit strange that the British army in there indiscriminate fire only hit men of combat age, no women, little old ladys or children and as for them all being unarmed, how easy is it to spirit a weapon away in situation like that.
They all might have had a weapon or they all might not have, who knows.

Wilhelm – interesting notes . None of which mentions any tests for any other type of weapon – ie nail bomb -petrol bomb etc . Unfortunately if you have infantry carrying out a policing job the end result is often not going to be as desired. I don’t really understand what kind of justice people want -do they want the kind of justice that saw Republican and Loyalist prisoners freed for political means as part of the Good Friday agreement . Some having served incredibly short terms for murder – or do people want to continue to channel incredible sums of money into the hands of lawyers ?

Looking at the sums so far seems to indicate that 13 million pounds has been spent per victim to come to this conclusion. Do you think that anything like that amount will be spent in trying to find the truth behind the less publicised killings in Northern Ireland?

Fair points David, on which I basically agree with.
I think the fact that no nail bombs were found , with the possible exception of Gerald Donaghy says it all, and there is even controversy surrounding that, given his transportation to a British Army medical post in a desperate attempt to save his life, and the various testimonies subsequent to that.

I’m trying hard, within my own experience, to think of a reason to fire in excess of 100 rounds into a crowd over the space of only a few minutes. Short of an all out attack with automatic fire and heavy weapons from multiple points, I simply cannot fathom it.

I must say I agree with you that as an ex-soldier, using infantry, or any armed soldier for that matter, is not an ideal solution in these environments. And I’ve always definitely thought that using troops such as paratroopers is always courting disaster. They are magnificent troops, sent far out, relatively lightly equipped, to capture certain objectives, create bridgeheads, or play a blocking or channeling role, most often far from friendly support. They are trained to be, and are by nature, extremely aggressive.
In my own experience in internal security and internal unrest, I would never, ever deploy them (paratroopers) in such a role. This is my own opinion, bourne out of my own experience, and the pieces that needed to be picked up after they deployed out of an area I was moved into.

Originally Posted by wilhelm View Post
It is a given that any person, loyalist or unionist, that has killed innocent civilians should be prosecuted.

But not the Republicans or Nationalists that have killed innocent civilians?

Errr, you’re not making much sense to me. Isn’t that exactly what I’ve said?:confused:

Wilhelm – interesting notes . None of which mentions any tests for any other type of weapon – ie nail bomb -petrol bomb etc . Unfortunately if you have infantry carrying out a policing job the end result is often not going to be as desired. I don’t really understand what kind of justice people want -do they want the kind of justice that saw Republican and Loyalist prisoners freed for political means as part of the Good Friday agreement . Some having served incredibly short terms for murder – or do people want to continue to channel incredible sums of money into the hands of lawyers ?

Looking at the sums so far seems to indicate that 13 million pounds has been spent per victim to come to this conclusion. Do you think that anything like that amount will be spent in trying to find the truth behind the less publicised killings in Northern Ireland?

I cannot understand why people in this thread keep dragging other incidents of the troubles in on this thread.

I suppose because they feel Bloody Sunday should be seen in the wider context of the Troubles and that focusing on Bloody Sunday in isolation gives a skewed view of the conduct of the British Army in Northern Ireland. Of course I appreciate that none of that excuses the behaviour of the guilty on Bloody Sunday.

It is a given that any person, loyalist or unionist, that has killed innocent civilians should be prosecuted.

But not the Republicans or Nationalists that have killed innocent civilians?

Look, it is good to know justice has been served. The families of those men killed that day now have legal recourse, and have previously existed in a legal limbo for all these years. The original enquiry stated that there was no unlawful death that day, a ludicrous whitewash that has led to this bitter resentment over the years.

I cannot understand why people in this thread keep dragging other incidents of the troubles in on this thread. It is a given that any person, republican or unionist, that has killed innocent civilians should be prosecuted. I personally would like to see them rot in hell. Any sane person would.

But this is about the events of Bloody Sunday, and that march. The hard facts are that the Paras were transported to the area and fired over 100 rounds of sharp point ammunition into a crowd. There is also the small matter of perjury, when a few soldiers stated that they had shot people shooting firearms at them, a version which was disproved by forensics even at the original enquiry.:(

13 were killed, with a 14th dying later from complications of his wounds. 14 others were wounded.

John Duddy, 17 years old. Shot in the chest in the car park of Rossville flats. Running away from the paratroopers when he was killed. Unarmed.

Patrick Doherty, 31 years old. Shot from behind while attempting to crawl to safety in the forecourt of Rossville flats. Doherty was the subject of a series of photographs, taken before and after he died by French journalist Gilles Peress. Despite testimony from “Soldier F” that he had fired at a man holding and firing a pistol, Widgery acknowledged that the photographs showed Doherty was unarmed, and that forensic tests on his hands for gunshot residue proved negative. Unarmed.

Bernard McGuigan, 41 years old. Shot in the back of the head when he went to help Patrick Doherty. He had been waving a white handkerchief at the soldiers to indicate his peaceful intentions. Unarmed.

Hugh Pious Gilmour, 17 years old. Shot as he ran from the paratroopers on Rossville Street. Widgery acknowledged that a photograph taken seconds after Gilmour was hit corroborated witness reports that he was unarmed, and that tests for gunshot residue were negative. Unarmed.

Kevin McElhinney, 17 years old. Shot from behind while attempting to crawl to safety at the front entrance of the Rossville Flats. Unarmed.

Michael Kelly, 17 years old. Shot in the stomach while standing near the rubble barricade in front of Rossville Flats. Unarmed.

John Pius Young, 17 years old. Shot in the head while standing at the rubble barricade. Unarmed.

William Nash, 19 years old. Shot in the chest near the barricade. Unarmed and shot going to the aid of another when killed. Unarmed.

Michael McDaid, 20 years old. Shot in the face at the barricade as he was walking away from the paratroopers. The trajectory of the bullet indicated he could have been killed by soldiers positioned on the Derry Walls. Unarmed.

James Wray, 22 years old. Wounded then shot again at close range while lying on the ground. Wray was calling out to say that he could not move his legs before he was shot the second time. Unarmed.

Gerald Donaghy, 17years old. Shot in the stomach while attempting to run to safety between Glenfada Park and Abbey Park. Donaghy was brought to a nearby house by bystanders where he was examined by a doctor. His pockets were turned out in an effort to identify him. A later police photograph of Donaghy’s corpse showed nail bombs in his pockets. Neither those who searched his pockets in the house nor the British army medical officer (Soldier 138) who pronounced his death shortly afterwards say they saw any bombs. The only victim who may possibly have been armed, albeit hidden in his pockets.

Gerald McKinney, 34 years old. Shot just after Gerald Donaghy. Witnesses stated that McKinney had been running behind Donaghy, and he stopped and held up his arms, shouting “Don’t shoot! Don’t shoot!”, when he saw Donaghy fall. He was then shot in the chest. Unarmed.

William McKinney, 27 years old. Shot from behind as he attempted to aid Gerald McKinney. He had left cover to try to help Gerald. Unarmed.

John Johnston, 59 years old. Shot in the leg and left shoulder.. Johnston was not on the march, but on his way to visit a friend in Glenfada Park. He died 4½ months later; his death has been attributed to the injuries he received on the day. He was the only one not to die immediately or soon after being shot. Unarmed.

The city’s coroner, retired British Army Major Hubert O’Neill, issued a statement on 21 August 1973, at the completion of the inquest into the people killed. He declared:
“This Sunday became known as Bloody Sunday and bloody it was. It was quite unnecessary. It strikes me that the Army ran amok that day and shot without thinking what they were doing. They were shooting innocent people. These people may have been taking part in a march that was banned but that does not justify the troops coming in and firing live rounds indiscriminately. I would say without hesitation that it was sheer, unadulterated murder. It was murder.”

As an ex infantry officer who has been in many, many situations with provocations similar or worse as what happened that day, I have my own firm opinions on the conduct of the soldiers that day.

Incidentally, the march was demonstrating against Internement without Trial, and discrimination against Catholics in electoral boundaries, voting rights and allocation of public housing.

Let us hope that the peace that NI needs may long reign.

No, I believe the Canary Islands would be better as part of Spain!

Why?