2nd Aerobilia Aerojumble BDAC Old Sarum, Sat 14th September 2013

Of course, old chap.

E-mail me!

Indeed Andy, I need some tix!!!

Meanwhile….don’t forget Shoreham on 29 March! :eagerness:

Yes will look forward to it, keep all updated please!

hopefully! will let everyone know as soon as can

just wondered If there was going to be an aerojumble at Old Sarum this year? Hope so???

I think a jumble at RAF Hendon would have it own problems as I could see them asking for public liability insurance as they do with the re-enactors who attend. Again this would in effect kill it for the booter who is just moving on personal artifacts, the business’s already have or should have this in place.

I agree, if any silly rules and regs come into play that should be covered by the museum as at other boot venues then it would be of nil interest to sellers.

INCIDENTALLY

Thanks to those who have responded so far on the NAM boot etc, it really does make a difference if sellers and buyers who wish to come to these museum events in future can input their own ideas and even if they can’t, just record their observations so that some idea can be guaged by others as to what might be done to improve them.

WEBSITE REVIEW

Thx Mike,

We heard the tables themselves were sold out but it was just hearing at the last moment on Friday that NAM mentioned a number of public callers to the museum had inquired whether it was for them also that caused some comment, so yes clear wording is paramount when costs are clearly a consideration.

I can see what you mean about amendment costs in-house also, whether done by NAM solely with its own graphic or done by NAM using the ‘heads up” panel prog Brooklands use. It has to be a weigh-up I guess if one or t’other would be worthwhile.

If alterable web pages are limited through understandable cost reasons then the important events listing in aiming to get more footfall for all events that NAM handles during the year, might be deemed worthy of attention at a later date. Will e-mail you shortly.

The current limitations of the NAM website are a known factor, when it was last updated more than 2 years ago the ability to have it all set up on a CMS basis (content management system) was limited by the prohibitive cost. Hence why we have a limited number of pages that we can amend ourselves!

The whole site is under review and even though the cost has come down the single biggest limiting factor we presently face is – time; i.e. time to migrate to a news system; time to keep all of the pages updated; time to sort out the next set of issues created by a new layout – as whatever you set up there’s always some potential visitor who will get confused!

Clearer wording helps – the fact that we’d Sold Out all the tables – indicated to the potential visitor that they would be unable to attend!! :stupid:

NAM WEBSITE HOME PAGE OBSERVATIONS FOR EVENTS

It was all very worrying on Friday to learn that members of the public had been asking the museum if the Aeroboot was open to them also on the day.

I mentioned to one of the museum staff on Saturday that the NAM Home Page isn’t working as effectively as it could be – putting aside the well-known Brooklands mindset on boots, on Friday evening I noted that their website at least was advertising its Sunday Autumn motoring event in a prominent manner. This featured a piece of paneled software which names the event and counts down in days, hours and minutes to its opening.

INSTANT HOME PAGE AWARENESS
There is nothing like this to make the public aware of forthcoming events on the NAM home page which I took a grab of in order to fit a quick panel graphic and show a similar kind of thing that could be done in-house by NAM – it would be less fiddly though if this actual software itself was incorporated as it would surely pay for itself in making any web public and sellers instantly AWARE of what event is forthcoming for whatever period is deemed relevant – no idea how it shows events that are close together, but perhaps it has an alternating faility.

This software programme has the potential to make ALL NAM events more prominent and increase footfall so it should be money well spent in relating not to just aeroboots alone, being universal in its application – Howard, I’ll send you some mock ups using grabs from both sites soonest – can’t post them here as my image allowance is seriously curtailed! Worth investigating anyway I hope.

OTHER HOME PAGE THOUGHTS
• ‘Special Events’ at top left needs flagging up on the main page also – it should be in bold and red, to make the eye go to it, as that section is crucial in enticing people to come to museum events and hopefully spend more money – after being alerted FIRSTLY to the ‘countdown’ box, the viewer would THEN go to a more prominent ‘Special Events’ title, to get further info.
• Listing of events in that section – the text seems too small to read to many people but are determined by the small picture width– these small pics used at right however could have the event titles in bold at least, with the descriptive below them in medium weight, rather than regular.
• Main text in that section: This seems to be a bit small and would benefit from a point size or two increase – again I would also put it in medium weight, as opposed to regular if size cannot be increased.
• Highlight ‘PUBLIC WELCOME’ on the home page for events and repeat it inside ‘Special Events’ details prominently.

I think a jumble at RAF Hendon would have it own problems as I could see them asking for public liability insurance as they do with the re-enactors who attend. Again this would in effect kill it for the booter who is just moving on personal artifacts, the business’s already have or should have this in place.

NAM AEROBOOT / ADVERTiSING / SELLING ETC

I agree ‘oldgit’, having boots on or near to airfields or at museums is best while just two a year would be too restrictive a dilution as well as monopolyist for any organisers concerned also I would suggest. A few new smaller ones like Old Sarum are needed to keep the spirit and potential for bargains alive and would compensate those that might well miss such a restricted number of just 2 events. If I hadn’t attended such smaller events in recent years I wouldn’t now have items like an early Lightning fin top display, a Vulcan pressurization panel, Harrier seat, hand-painted 1 Sqn Mk.1A helmet, and a hand-painted 56 Sqn Lightning panel display – some acquired by face-to-face networking and not directly from a boot itself.

I go to both smaller local and established events like Shoreham & Popham though I know many can’t while just 2 events a year would mean a notable loss of this vital one-to-one networking. Personally I can’t wait solely until the next ‘Fest boot for kit when we are still on the look out for existing or new projects to acquire before that time, especially in view of its drop in dealers both old and new this year. If the fuel cost is prohibitive even on a twice-yearly basis excluding the ‘Fest itself re standard NAM aeroboot events, then people have to make their own decisions obviously.

Yes eBay is greedily killing itself along with some chancing businesses and private sellers and I noted the latest ploy of charging 10% on postage. People previously selling small items for some spare cash have been forced off as the post costs are often refused for being greater than the item itself. For supporters of the last postal increase I can only say that people can’t afford to post many letters these days, while the parcel service is profitable because it has modernized while still enjoying like BT, a greater monopoly – eg. who wants to pay these ridiculous pre-historic ‘line rental’ charges anymore, with an increased charge for VAT? That’s why I’m online at an office as its paid by someone else.

I also bought a Victor fuel measures chart for £5 which had previously been up on the Bay Baron’s site of selling but which I couldn’t be bothered to bid on, as I simply hate buying from it and fostering the Bay Barons’ greed. I seem to be getting daily exhortations and offers from them on e-mail which I take to mean that they are trying to keep profits up in a recession. Something I sold provided an interesting response in that as expected, I was asked on a well-priced item as to what I ‘could do’ on it. I told the interested party that a similar item on eBay was currently for sale at £300.

EBAYUS MORE EXPENSIVE
The quick retort was ‘Yes, but will it sell?’ While it might well sell eventually if it rotates month after month or might sell in its first offering, I could have pointed out that if the ebay seller had put his item up for comfortably under HALF his current price (as I was asking for my item), then yes it would definitely have sold. The ‘bay didn’t influence my price I must say, it was based on my aeroboot experience. The person concerned was an old hand just chancing his arm and I felt that on that occasion I would let it go and reduced it a bit further as I’m sure he’s also a good boy to his mum, but its not something that we can always do of course. A similar question aiming at a reduction was chanced by someone buying my used Harrier GR3 front screens for £10 ea, but as he always does it and I knew that my price was very fair, I declined – he said “You’ve got to try haven’t yer?” on handing over his £20. Sometimes maybe, but not always.

I agree too on the clear pricing of items, in general I’ve found most put prices on their wares but there are exceptions, and one such seller at the ‘Fest always has nil prices on all of the items offered – I never bother to ask these days as they seemed expensive the first time I ever asked and I presumed they couldn’t be bothered to re-price them as they must vary them according to the other events they attend during the year. I try to use fluorescent labels in the main as they attract attention besides conveying a clear description and price of items more readily than little white stickers. I bought some excellent items at NAM including altimeters and a mint set of Beverley headphones. Some items are what they are and need some TLC, but I agree its not good if they’re clearly not clean where they could be, and often for little effort.

I think its the case that as Mike says, some dealers who can’t bring newer stock will inevitably struggle and if he can only re-stock at events like NAM then it must be even harder for him if he can’t get other newer bits from other sources to offer with his existing items. I left a lot of mine at home as it was possible to bring mainly newer stuff this time – including instrumentation from Old Sarum, some of which sold. I also had a good-value item that I knew a preservationist was attending might well need, and a deal was struck on the day. Mark also had a well-priced Tornado console panels project on offer that someone had to tear himself away from! Other items I had never brought before sold along with some others that hadn’t, and I made over £300 – this was fortunate as I saw 4 crashes on the wet roads coming and going, with one on the M11 meaning that I had to go back into London by A1/406, adding nearly £10 to my bill which was around £47-£48.

PITCH PRICING / ADVERTISING
The NAM boot is fairly priced and its up to sellers to decide with management if a different way forward can be found or we run with what we have and accept attendances that many feel aren’t worthwhile by buers/public. A meeting was offered at NAM but was not taken up as sellers wanted to get away as usual so its back to online proposals and finding some kind of consensus.

Do sellers want to pay say £25 to pay for more advertising, and what that could be used for? We know that many people don’t use computers for their info, they read national mags but ads cost money. If 40 dealers attended on Saturday then the extra £10 on the current fee would bring in £400 for some ads and/or small digital print run of A5 mailers, that sellers would need to personally post in local shops, as post is too expensive these days.

An aeroboot at RAF Hendon (its correct name for many of us) would certainly liven it up and be an obviously good backdrop, even if a one-off. Yes we need to support these events as much as possible. See ‘NAM Website’ next.

As there have been no responses to the item on the NAM website about the event on Saturday I will make some feedback on here. This is not intended to be defensive or confrontational but merely a way of getting over a few answers to the points being raised.

The event on Saturday was moved forward at the suggestion of stallholders at previous events, to try and seen whether an earlier date might be beneficial.

Feedback from various stallholders and buyers to both me directly and other museum people; shows a mixed picture with some really happy with their takings, whilst others are not.

Visitors to the museum (I acknowledge they may not be enthusiast / buyers) were interesting to note:

Visitor count @ 12.30pm (as first sellers started to pack up) was 19 down on the 2012 autumn sale total visitor figure for the day.

Visitor count @ 1.30pm (as most sellers had packed up) was 10 up on the 2012 autumn sale total visitor figure for the day.

Visitor count @ 16.00pm (when I left site) was 36 up on the 2012 autumn sale total visitor figure for the day.

Admittedly the 2012 date was later in the month and much colder.

The advertising (levy) suggestion detailed on the NAM website was made by a group of stallholders and perhaps poorly explained by me on the NAM website after around 12 or more hours on Aeroboot matters. (I guess they were saying they’d be willing to pay more if it went on adverts).

The topic of advertising will be put before the trustees by me and I will endeavour to get approval to do more specific event adverts.

Early admissions have been allowed in the past, but these were stopped at the request of stallholders – following a previous debate like this.

Admission cost for buyers is another interesting topic – as the £4.00 fee seems to concern some people, as does the helper pass system. The museum does not have a problem with sellers sharing stalls to help spread the costs and passes have been provided accordingly. However I was told on Saturday by at least two sellers that they had been contacted by people asking them to request helper passes so they could get in either early or without paying!

We do listen to feedback and try to develop accordingly but as I type this I’m personally beginning to question whether I have got the enthusiasm to continue helping to organise them.

HI All,

I visited the Newark aero jumble for the 2nd time on Saturday with someone who had never been to one before and on the way back he commented on a number of observations which we both agreed upon and feel should be shared.

1) Presentation: people will buy items when they are clean and tidy, not when they are full of dust etc or look like they have just been dragged out of the back of the barn. A little time cleaning may mean the difference of making a sale or missing out on one. One or 2 of the tables looked like the seller did not care how it looked, a little time laying out the items again may mean the difference. I know many will say it’s a “ jumble “ but even the ones I attended years ago at Staverton as a kid and later at Whitwick presentation was the word.
2) Pricing: I am one of those who hates to keep on asking how much an item costs at any car boot/aero jumble/auto jumble, sometimes I get the feeling the seller looks at me to see what I can afford then decides how much the item will cost me, on Saturday I had to keep on asking as many of the items on stalls were not priced up, after a while I gave up.
3) Attitude: I am one who deals on a daily basis with public attitude so very much used to it but even then on occasions I am still surprised. I noted 2 traders who spoke to members of the public as if they knew nothing and felt they was superior, we also noted attitude from one stall holder making comments about another stall holder’s wares , yet another seller was over heard advising a buyer that another stall holder had what he was looking for, he did not get a sale but he was acting in the best interests of the buyer I felt. Please be aware that not all the public are deaf or know nothing, I made that mistake once and it nearly cost me dearly.
4) Descriptions: sometimes it helps to read what an item has come from or is fitted too, joe public may not be looking for something specific but just what catches his/her eye, seeing what a part has come from may start a unintended project off and they may ask for more parts to be supplied in the future, how long does it take to write and stick a small label on it with price eg : cockpit panel from the aircraft which flew Lord Lucan out of the UK to paradise £666.
5) Organisors: Having just read the NAM website post jumble comments, after the stall holder has paid for the stall position and their fuel( which is becoming very expensive) is it fair to ask them for another £3 to pay for advertising of the event. As some have already mentioned they did not even sell enough to cover their costs of attending so will paying out upfront even more money guarantee they will? It may increase attendance putting more money in the organisors coffers but not necessary into the pockets of the stall holders. How about NAM charging an early bird fee on the first hour on top of the admission fee instead?
6) Location: I used to enjoy attending the aerojumbles at Staverton as whilst my father looked at flying clothing etc I used to watch the aircraft flying in and out, compared to Whitwick that after paying a little bit more as a early bird after a few hours there was nothing more to view so off home it was. Having the jumble at a museum/Airfield not only gives the event the right atmosphere I feel it could also encourage people to buy something aeronautical off a stall to remember their visit as well as enjoy walking around the place as part of the admission fee. However driving 200 miles, paying admission fee then walking around a non aviation related field for a few hours then driving back another 200 miles may appeal to some but not to me, I much prefer value for money hence why I think all aero jumbles should be held at either museums/airshow.
7) Support: We still need to support these events as much as possible, I do not agree with just having 2 a year, one in the south and one in the north of the country as like in my comments in number 6, plus Evil bay is very slowly killing itself off via introducing too many ways of charging you more money to sell items, the latest one is to charge the seller 10% of postage costs !!! so by having a few little jumbles in between one large one each year will keep the door open for those like me who prefer these face to face events.

Please note the above is only personnal comments

All in all I would like to thank the staff at NAM for the warm welcome and wonderful atmosphere on Saturday and looking forward to the next one. Maybe the RAFM would consider holding one occasionally at both Hendon and Cosford sites?
Regards
Jason

If it’s any consolation Anon, I had a similarly dismal time at Newark yesterday, despite having a bigger and more varied stall than yours (I browsed it while you were on a walk about/I was on a walkabout – what else was there to do yesterday in the absence of buyers?).

I am wondering whether moving the date forward by several weeks caught potential visitors out? Not everyone reads this forum or the NAM website. To re-inforce GOKONE’s point, I believe that advertising pays! A great shame as just about every stall holder made the effort to turn up despite rotten weather and there was a lot of interesting stuff about.

1, this hobby is not supported in the way other similar are, ie Airshows.
2, it can be a massive expense to find that what you are looking for is not there.
3, EBAY !
4, A lot of deals go on here even though they are not supposed too.
5, secrecy, collectors like to keep things close to home especially where to get bargains.

As Andy says, 2 per year one north one south or even mid country. I would love to attend these events but it really would only be a jolly outing and the best part of £120.00 quid for the day. seeing a museum would be a bonus and maybe linked to an airshow day is my thoughts but again I doubt I would be parting with much cash to the vendors unless it was very special.
This is not a downer its just some facts as I see them.

Good luck to all organisers of these events and I do take my hat off to the effort put into running them.

TA

I am sorry to say this (and many might say “He would say that, wouldn’t he?”) but an increase in aerojumble type events will not keep the flame burning, but will extinguish it.

The viability for more events of the same ilk, even in different parts of the country, is questionable. And doubtful. Yes, a few (and I mean a few) localised traders and buyers will go to the more ‘local’ event, but that alone will not make them work. Instead, those traders and punters will then (often) forsake the bigger and more established events – with a detrimental effect on those events.

In my view, there is room for one good-sized large established event in the south of the country and a similar one in the north. Ideally, one in the spring and the other in the autumn.

There exists a finite level of interest, material, disposable income etc – and that is just spread thinner across the same band of attendees, traders etc. That said, venues like Brooklands have failed because they wouldn’t listen when asked how such an event should be run. And that was at a stage when it could have been made to work.

Going back to the bigger and more established events, it was long ago realised that there wasn’t room for Yeovilton and the Tangmere/Fontwell/Goodwood/Shoreham event. As it happened, Yeovilton folded first. As I see it, there is only room for a biggish south event and a biggish north event. The dilution with other events isn’t helpful, and I mean no disrespect to the organisers whom I mostly know well and are friends and colleagues. However….!

Yes, thanks to Howard and the rest of the NAM team for the usual warm welcome. Even though the day was not a success for me it was still good to have a catch-up with everyone and browse the stalls.

There was some discussion as to whether the resurgence of the aerojumble this last few years was just a blip and that the pendulum was beginning to swing the other way once more. I don’t think it is e-Bay this time, but it could be that the current financial climate has something to do with it. It’s hard to tell.

On a personal note, I didn’t have much (actually, zero) success at Old Sarum either. By success, I mean that I didn’t go any way towards covering my costs for each event. A big part of these events, as I have alluded, is meeting up with the usual folk, picking up a few items and enjoying the banter. However, I can’t afford the cost of the self-indulgence of it all and may have to seriously consider my own participation and attendance at future jumble-only events.

Having said that I think that, in my case, it is having the same old stuff on the table with little that is new to tempt the regulars – they have seen it all before. As for the public; they don’t want a B-17 oxy tank or a Meteor nosewheel rim. The punter’s wife wants a book or a craft item and he might be tempted by a model kit or DVD. I attribute my lack of success firmly at my own door due to not being able to bring something new to an event.

This is why the “new boy” with a stall and a selection of unseen, original and varied selection of items generally does well. They break the impasse which is created by largely the same items being brought, by most dealers, to every aerojumble. The new boy has a new selection and his prices are invariably cheap (“I had all this stuff in the loft/garage for years just gathering dust and the wife has been nagging me to get rid of it”) and has little idea as to the real worth so there are bargains to be had. There were such individuals at Old Sarum and Newark and they appeared to do OK.

My main reason for doing the jumbles (second to the social aspect) is to raise some much-needed dosh to go towards further restoration work on my cockpits, etc. I am not a dealer or a trader, nor do I wish to be. If it’s costing me to attend these events for little or no return then I must question the validity of the exercise as not only do I lose money, I also sacrifice a precious weekend day which could be spent working on my projects.

I think the museums arranging these events have done their bit and cannot be held responsible if it is not a success. Certainly, in each of these cases the events were well publicised. We are talking a very limited and specialised niche interest here and whilst we diehards wonder why many more aren’t involved in our wonderful hobby the reality is that, because of its few participants it is difficult to make it pay for itself. That is the reality, at least for me.

May be I will have come round by next season, I don’t know but at the moment though I am finding the price of the social interaction hard to justify.

Roll on Cockpit Fest (only 8 months to go:applause:), oh, and the one that heralds the start of spring and the new season – Shoreham. One I attend as a buyer only and worth every penny!

Anon.

Many thanks to Howard and Ros for today’s event, given the poor weather I think it all seemed to go ok. Always good to catch up with ‘usual bunch’ also some new faces, look forward to next year.
Mark