Killed by a “rogue” policeman, being trained and assisted by British forces, and he seems to have gotten away.
The military police killed in Iraq were killed by locals being trained (and who used the weapons supplied by British forces).
I cannot believe that these losses continue like this.
By: Jonesy - 7th November 2009 at 01:46
Sorry Kev your points are laudable and well made, but, extremely dangerous in my view.
The fact that we had the terrorists in Afghanistan chased off, for miniscule publicly recognised losses, into the Waziristan border regions right from the start of this is well accepted. The problem is that it left nothing behind as a nationally-recognisable authority to take charge as there was no ready ‘opposition’ structure waiting in the wings who could do the job. There were several who made pretensions to it, but, no-one who could deliver on the promise.
What is obvious is that there has to be some, independent, force structure in place there until some form of ‘good governance’ can be established. That governance is not the existing regime or the one to come. We are looking, at least, at two generations for the concepts of governance, as we know them, to establish themselves over there. Only then could we consider scaling back the force presence with the hope of leaving a stable and robust political entity behind.
We’ve seen what happened after the Soviets were obliged to retreat in 89. The vacuum forms and the Taleban essentially return the country to the tribal fiefdoms of centuries back. We retreat, wash our hands of the mess, and the whole cycle starts again.
What happens is that the hardcore Al-Qaeda mob come down from the Northern Pakistani badlands with the Pakistani’s helping them on the way to shore-up their own border security situation. In a decades time thereafter the Taleban and Al-Qaeda are not only back up to pre-9/11 capability levels, but, enjoying the reputation of having chased NATO out as well as the best that the Soviets could throw at them.
If we pull out, as you suggest, we stop the tragic, but relatively limited, flow of casualties out of the combat zone (and I say that as someone who has friends out there and soon to deploy) and we enjoy a lull of maybe as much as a decade whilst Al Qaeda reconstitutes. Then we get to wait and see which civilian populations take the brunt of the renewed and invigorated terrorist campaign that ensues.
As a secondary effect to pulling out we suffer our own Vietnam-hangover. We admit failure and an inability to make good on our pledges. We show ourselves as a nation lacking in resolve and conviction even when our (western democratic) interests are expressly challenged. In short we show ourselves to be an unreliable partner, ally and friend to anyone who may wish to see such qualities in us….and this isn’t an intangible, frivolous factor to be dismissed when stacked up against the cost in service personnel’s lives. It is a crucial dimension in how others define their relations with us.
Post-Falklands Great Britain’s’ stock could not have been higher, we had shown ourselves as people who could be trusted to back their words with deeds, still the people who would make the principled stand….even at the highest of costs. That communicated a message to potential friends as much as potential opponents. Pulling out of Afghanistan citing it as an unwinnable war sends out every bit as powerful a message and is one we will pay a price for down the track as perceptions are very hard to change once ingrained.
Afghanistan is in every way a lose/lose situation for us. One way we suffer the casualties and trauma associated with a 30yr long presence in a country facing an effective armed insurrection and the other way we give that armed insurrection an unassailable political victory and brace our civilian populations for the resurgent backlash that results. To my mind the ‘least worst’ option there is obvious and it doesn’t involve a pull out.
By: Arabella-Cox - 5th November 2009 at 11:29
Kev……….
As ever well put together. Agree with you completely. It is an unwinnable war. If we were to stay for 10 years the situation will no be much changed. There will continue to be a steady loss of life. Eventually we will leave ( Vietnam comes immediately to mind ). We should do it NOW before more lives are needlessly lost.
Will the politicians take any notice? No a hope……. This is yet another example of where they are totally disconnected from the mood/feelings of the people who elect them and many of them appear to be content with that situation.
The politicians try to deceive us into believing that our streets are safer as a result of our presence in Afganistan. It seems many of our European neighbours do not share that view: if they did there would be many more European troops there. Yes, I do know there are some there but on a proportionate basis their losses are not nearly as great.
Bring them all home TODAY………!!!
Planemike
By: BSG-75 - 4th November 2009 at 13:44
It’s time to bring them all home, whatever the Nationality.
You Sir, are a master of our language, debate and discussion. I tip my hat to your post and the sentiment. (I also liked GA’s suggestion as well)
I would also like to know the status of the criminal investigation in (free) Iraq into the murder of the military policemen, we know investigations are possible when the locals feel their Human Rights are at risk…..
By: Creaking Door - 4th November 2009 at 13:15
Here we have men and women whose courage cannot be questioned who are prepared to fight, and if necessary die, in the defence of their Countries. It is the responsibility of their respective Governments to husband those lives.
Well said!
By: Grey Area - 4th November 2009 at 13:03
Well said, Kev.
If I may venture a suggestion, I feel that the word “or” in the first sentence of your final paragraph should be replaced with the word “and”.
By: kev35 - 4th November 2009 at 12:39
It’s time to bring them all home, whatever the Nationality.
A number of British soldiers killed in Operation Panther’s Claw to make the election safe and viable which led to nothing more than a drastically low turnout of voters and a high level of corruption and electoral fraud.
A second election proposed which eventually fizzled into nothing but farce because the only opposition candidate withdrew because the election could not be guaranteed to be free and fair.
A British Bomb Disposal Officer loses his life in the course of his duties, defusing explosive devices.
Five British soldiers killed today by an Afghan Policeman.
How many Americans have been killed during the same time period?
Here we have men and women whose courage cannot be questioned who are prepared to fight, and if necessary die, in the defence of their Countries. It is the responsibility of their respective Governments to husband those lives.
Their respective Governments have a duty of care to ensure that when soldiers are deployed at the behest of their Government that they are properly equipped to carry out their role and that there is a defined exit strategy, none of this ‘we might be there for 40 years’ rubbish.
It is time to bring them home now. Afghanistan is not worth one more life. Afghanistan has always been the domain of tribal warlords. When they are not fighting an external enemy they are content to fight each other.
Get them out now, or send some of our MP’s who have spent today whining about the new rules governing their expenses to accompany British soldiers on foot patrol in Helmand. They might just learn the meaning of dignity and humility.
Regards,
kev35
Sign In
November 4, 2009 at 10:56 am