.50 BMG in RAF aircraft ?

I believe it was the Canadians who were the first to re-fit a ventral gun, after they became convinced of the reality of ‘schrage musik’, which Command was still in denial about. That would be late in ’44.

Incidentally, I read once that the .50 gun was the prefered weapon of the RAF when they were considering the replacement of the Gladiator. At a meeting in ’32/’33 (can’t remember which) the Treasury insisted that .303 guns would have to be used because there were millions of rounds of .303 ammo left over from WWI that had to be used up before a change of calibre could be considered. Does anyone know any more about that?

In Anthony Furse’s biography of Sir Wilfred Freeman the man who did so much
to ensure that the RAF had the aircraft needed and the aircraft industry had the production and repair facilities to acheive it. On page 127 it states that the Air Ministry had recognised the need for 20mm cannons to replace .303 machine guns as early as 1937! But assumed that the cannons would be too heavy to be fitted into the wings of the new single engined monoplanes. Thus twin engined aircraft were developed namely the Westland Whirlwind and the Bristol Beaufighter with cannons in the nose. Of course we all know that the monoplanes were developed to carry cannons in their wings.

I believe it was the Canadians who were the first to re-fit a ventral gun, after they became convinced of the reality of ‘schrage musik’, which Command was still in denial about. That would be late in ’44.

Incidentally, I read once that the .50 gun was the prefered weapon of the RAF when they were considering the replacement of the Gladiator. At a meeting in ’32/’33 (can’t remember which) the Treasury insisted that .303 guns would have to be used because there were millions of rounds of .303 ammo left over from WWI that had to be used up before a change of calibre could be considered. Does anyone know any more about that?

Sorry Kansan,
I overlooked the date. Lancaster Mk.X started flying on Operations in May, 1944.

Ken.

Hi Ken,

Wow. I wouldn’t have guessed they entered service so soon. Thanks for that.

Rob / Kansan

I don’t think it would have been a Mark X Lanc in March 1944, would it?

Sorry Kansan,
I overlooked the date. Lancaster Mk.X started flying on Operations in May, 1944.

Ken.

Gossel, Halifax or Lancaster

Hallo Rob / Kansan!

Thank you for the reply. I hope to find with all your help more answers to some questions about the Gossel bomber and the Halifax, which we couldn’t yet identify.
We are 3 “researchers” in East Germany, not far away from Berlin. Our area of interest is S and SW of the “Big City”. Here we have many crashsites of Bomber Command bombers. Since about 5 years we work together for save the information from eyewitnesses and for put all known informations about the crashes here together.

If one of you may be can help us we were very glad about any new detail…

Thanks a lot
Karsten

Hallo all!

Just had found on yesterday this very helpful Aviation Forum. Since any time I will help the chaps at Gossel to identify the crashed aircraft. On my website, www.bomber-command.de I have put in some photos (www.bomber-command.de/gossel.html). Please visit the link.

And please visit my link Crashsites. Here I’m searching for details about a crashed, unknown Halifax Mk. III.

More later, and thank you for the help

Karsten

Karsten,

A very intersting website. Thanks for sharing the information.

Rob / Kansan

The Victory Aircraft produced Lancaster Mk.X replaced the Frasher Nash mid-upper turret with the Martin 250 turret on the production line from serial number KB 853 on. A good many of these airframes did see combat with the 419,428,431 and 434 Squadrons.

I beleive some of No.6 Group Halifax Mk.III and Lancaster Mk.II had a single .50 cal MG in the Mid-Under position.

Ken.

Ken,

I don’t think it would have been a Mark X Lanc in March 1944, would it?

Rob / Kansan

The Victory Aircraft produced Lancaster Mk.X replaced the Frasher Nash mid-upper turret with the Martin 250 turret on the production line from serial number KB 853 on. A good many of these airframes did see combat with the 419,428,431 and 434 Squadrons.

I beleive some of No.6 Group Halifax Mk.III and Lancaster Mk.II had a single .50 cal MG in the Mid-Under position.

Ken.

Gossel crash

Hallo all!

Just had found on yesterday this very helpful Aviation Forum. Since any time I will help the chaps at Gossel to identify the crashed aircraft. On my website, www.bomber-command.de I have put in some photos (www.bomber-command.de/gossel.html). Please visit the link.

And please visit my link Crashsites. Here I’m searching for details about a crashed, unknown Halifax Mk. III.

More later, and thank you for the help

Karsten

Can Pathfinder find out what is the inscription on the “headstamp” of the cartridges? This may allow someone to find out where they were manufactured. This is an interesting mystery and shows how fearful the bombers were of German tactics and weapons like “Schrage Musik”.

That would be helpful. I have reference books dealing with this subject so would probably be able to identify the manufacturer, although this may not be decisive: .50 cal ammo was made in Britain, but US manufactured ammo was also used.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum

Mmm,

Seems like you don’t need me on Halifax matters anymore 😀

True, the propeller boss is Rotol with compressed wooden/resin blades as used on the Merlin engined halifaxes II and V (and Wellington II’s, Whitley V’s and Lancaster II’s etc.) These props were never used on the later Hercules powered Mk III’s, VI, VII etc which used metal DH props. The Preston Green underturret used on (Mostly Canadian) Halifax squadrons used one .50 machinegun but was not an official fitment but very popular as stated earlier in this thread. I have no information about Merlin engined II’s fitted with such a turret but this doesn’t mean there wasn’t one as there is no offical paperwork describing the fitment of these turrets. This was an in the field modification. The later tail turrets with .50 guns were only fitted much later in the war and fitted in Merlin Lancs and Hercules Halifaxes. The FN 64 underturret fitted to early Lanc’s used .303 machineguns.

Interesting topic, we need some more information from the crashsite please

Cheers

Cees

Pathfinder’s team should keep digging the site – maybe there’s a Preston Green turret down there.

682al –
youre absolutely right old bean – wasnt a Hal III was an earlier mark II ahem…had merlins! We didnt recover the engine only the boss….

In my defence it was 15 years ago -and i was 15 at the time….. 🙂 checked the serial number this am!!

So I’m with you – Mark II Lanc with scare gun –

Sorted!

I love these research threads!

Cheers fella

TT

I’m sure that at some point, most wartime aircraft were tested with different engine/propellor combinations to try and establish the best performance profiles, so there may well have been wooden blades tested on Merlin Lancs and on Hercules powered Halifaxes.

However I’m pretty confident that Halifax III’s had metal de H props when delivered. To re-assure myself, I’ve just checked the Halifax III A.P. and there is no reference to anything other than de H props. I’ve also gone thru K. A. Merrick’s book, and I cannot see any photos of the Hercules versions with what appear to be wooden blades.

I assume you’ve got the serial number for the Halifax III you dug, TexanTomcat? It will be interesting to trace it’s career and may give us a clue as to how it ended up with wooden blades.

For now, and assuming the prop hub is confirmed as a Hercules, I’ll stick with Lanc II and a .5 mounted to fire downwards.

Good debate, though! 🙂

Good point Charley-

Will take some photos of some of the Museums Bristol Herc prop bosses.

Dug a Halifax III about 10 years ago, it had wooden blades….again will post pix – not sure then how all III’s had metal blades – again, Cees may be able to help?

But bottom line is Pathfinders Photo shows a wooden bladed hub and he found .50 cases.

The likely candidates for a 1944 crash must therefore be Lanc or Halifax, I am certain that the boss is Bristol Herc, therefore we are looking at MKII Lanc (unlikely) or Herc powered Halifax – we have evidence that Halifaxes were equipped with a Preston Turret or Scare Gun of .5 calibre – my guess then is that we are looking at a Halifax-

The problem is that the variations on wartime aircraft seem to be enormous.

But if it isnt a Herc Boss -would be interested to hear suggestions as to what aircraft were still fitted with wooden blades and carried .50 armament in 1944…..

For my money I think we’ve nailed it.

TT

Can Pathfinder find out what is the inscription on the “headstamp” of the cartridges? This may allow someone to find out where they were manufactured. This is an interesting mystery and shows how fearful the bombers were of German tactics and weapons like “Schrage Musik”.

didn’t some of the Sunderland’s have .50’s in the nose turret?

Yes Alan, I’ve got some of those prop blades too. They could be found all over Cheshire just a few years ago, from North to South.

However, I’ve never seen a photo of (or reference to) a Merlin engined Lanc issued to a Squadron with wooden prop blades. The Mks. I, III, VI, VII, X etc all had Merlin engines with propellors usually referred to as “needle blade” or “paddle steamers”. These were metal.

I’d be grateful for a reference to (or better still) a photo of a Merlin engined Lancaster with wooden blades?

Regards!

682al

Some Lancasters did have wooden props, and not just Mk.IIs.

After the war when outstanding contracts for Lancasters were cancelled the props which had been already been delivered to Avro were sold off to local farms as fence posts, I know this as a friend has three in his shed that were removed from a field (in exchange for some new fence posts) about 10 years ago not too far from Woodford and the farmer said they had originally bought from Avro.

I’ll add my tuppence worth.

The only Halifaxes likely to have been with the Main Force on 23/24 March 1944 were Mk. III’s. These had de H Hydromatic props which had metal blades.

Some (but not all) Halifax II and V’s had Rotol wooden blades, but after heavy losses during the winter of 1943/44, these aircraft had been withdrawn from the main assault and were used for diversionary raids into France, mining in coastal waters, etc.

Likewise the Hercules engined Wellingtons which also featured wooden propellor blades.

Halifax losses on the Berlin raid were all Mk. IIIs, with a couple of Merlin engined Mk. II’s lost from a diversionary raid into France (but these both came down in this country).

This leaves the Lancaster Mk. II as a candidate as some aircraft used Rotol wooden props.

A “lash up” with a floor mounted .5 in Browning gun is possible, given that Bomber Command was waking up to the reality of the Schrage Musik installation on German night fighters and also because Mk. II Lancasters often did not have H2S due to their bulged bomb bays.

Chorley lists several Mk. IIs lost on that night (Sgt N. Alkemade, who made the famous descent without his parachute, was in one of them).

Hope this helps!