60 years ago – the world's first jet airliner flies!

I saw the infamous tv programme and I must admit that I didnt necessarily disagree with all of it,didnt one well known test pilot once say something along the lines of ”DH a/c had a bit of a reputation for coming unglued ”.
I know there are quite a few DH fans on here,I dont have any axes to grind over any a/c so am not ‘getting at’ DH or anything.
ISTR an autobio that I read years ago written by somebody involved in early Comet training for his airline,they had a nickname for the Comet which was along the lines of ‘bacofoil’ or ‘tinfoil’ because even on double curvature skin they could ‘oilcan’ the metal by pressing on it.

It is my understanding that the Fletcher topdresser was a clean sheet design , not based on anything else .

Graham, though I admire the reasoning of your first post, your post number #10 is utter tosh!
It really is a bit simplistic to just copy an internet list of the 707 accidents without proper investigation, most of them don’t even appear to be any fault of the aircraft itself, ie terrorism, weather, crew related etc. Also many more 707s were built than Comets and were used in higher numbers for a far longer period, so they were bound to have a higher service accident count.
For the true picture you really need to do comparison lists and percentages of the two types.

As much as we can admire the Comet (and I do very much) you can’t escape from the fact that some were lost (in lower amounts than usually quoted) to design and stressing faults in the design. What didn’t help was that the dramatic accidents occured early in their life, and in the infancy of the jet airliner story, and thus still very high profile and news worthy – along with the investigations afterwards.

As for the other silliness, the Comet was the first solely designed and practical jet airliner to fly and to be put into regular passenger service.
The Viking (6/4/48), Tudor 8 (6/9/48), and Lancastrian (was this ever pure jet?) were conversions of existing airframes all for trials and research work. The Ashton (1/9/50) was a pure jet design from the outset, built for research work within the MoS and RAE.
Canadas’ Avro Jetliner first flew on the 10 August 1949 and came to nowt.

The Comet was a truely oustanding design of the day and more aerodynamically advanced than other commercial types of the time, it should be celebrated as an aviation milestone (even if it’s a British Icarus type affair), after the initial problems the Comet 4 went on to excellent world service, and was always considered a delight to fly in.

Finally and at last someone has seen what I was trying to demonstrate – I was wondering how long it would take! Indeed it IS far too simplistic to quote a list of accidents and incidents relating to a single type without doing a balanced and detailed study – but that is exactly what so many Comet detractors do, for some reason particularly those who love to sing the praises of Boeing in the context of the 707, so I was just using their own style of arguments back at them!

They quote the same old argument of ‘Comets fell out of the sky’ without anything further – which is a complete dismissal of something that was unknown at the time and that totally ignores all the groundbreaking work done by many people including the RAE and DH to discover what happened – the results of which was made freely available to all.

It also needs to be said that since that terrible Channel Four programme that murdered the Comet – despite it going to Broadcasting Complaints I hear people still say ‘ that De Havillands knew… the Government knew… BOAC knew… there was a cover-up etc etc etc’. Which has been proven was completely NOT the case!

Simplistic arguments never tell the complete story – nor does partisan hype based on marketing and publicity hyperbole (as anyone following the KC-X refuelling tanker saga will know). – only balanced discussion based on detailed research can tell the true story.

Graham, though I admire the reasoning of your first post, your post number #10 is utter tosh!
It really is a bit simplistic to just copy an internet list of the 707 accidents without proper investigation, most of them don’t even appear to be any fault of the aircraft itself, ie terrorism, weather, crew related etc. Also many more 707s were built than Comets and were used in higher numbers for a far longer period, so they were bound to have a higher service accident count.
For the true picture you really need to do comparison lists and percentages of the two types.

As much as we can admire the Comet (and I do very much) you can’t escape from the fact that some were lost (in lower amounts than usually quoted) to design and stressing faults in the design. What didn’t help was that the dramatic accidents occured early in their life, and in the infancy of the jet airliner story, and thus still very high profile and news worthy – along with the investigations afterwards.

As for the other silliness, the Comet was the first solely designed and practical jet airliner to fly and to be put into regular passenger service.
The Viking (6/4/48), Tudor 8 (6/9/48), and Lancastrian (was this ever pure jet?) were conversions of existing airframes all for trials and research work. The Ashton (1/9/50) was a pure jet design from the outset, built for research work within the MoS and RAE.
Canadas’ Avro Jetliner first flew on the 10 August 1949 and came to nowt.

The Comet was a truely oustanding design of the day and more aerodynamically advanced than other commercial types of the time, it should be celebrated as an aviation milestone (even if it’s a British Icarus type affair), after the initial problems the Comet 4 went on to excellent world service, and was always considered a delight to fly in.

Wasn’t the Fletcher based on an American design? (This based on childhood memories of looking at a period Jane’s).

Designed by John Thorpe, IIRC?

At any rate, nice Skydiving ships, I saw a turbine-powered one on Mythbusters awhile back.

I think it was, yes.

TODAY 27 July is the 60th anniversary of the maiden flight of the DH106 Comet airliner and to celebrate SIXTY members of the de Havilland Aircraft Company staff who worked on the prototype met for a lunch at the Comet Hotel, Hatfield.

Wish I could have been there…I’d expect some good stories.

27 July

There is more to today, the 27 July, than just the Comet. From Stuart McKay, Secretary of the de Havilland Moth Club:

TODAY 27 July is the birthday of the late Sir Geoffrey de Havilland.

TODAY 27 July is the birthday of the late John Cunningham.

TODAY 27 July is the 60th anniversary of the maiden flight of the DH106 Comet airliner and to celebrate SIXTY members of the de Havilland Aircraft Company staff who worked on the prototype met for a lunch at the Comet Hotel, Hatfield.

If I was to be truly nationalistic when it comes to aircraft, all I could boast about is the Fletcher…

Wasn’t the Fletcher based on an American design? (This based on childhood memories of looking at a period Jane’s).

Designed by John Thorpe, IIRC?

At any rate, nice Skydiving ships, I saw a turbine-powered one on Mythbusters awhile back.

To be fair, you don’t have quite the population density in New Zealand, do you?

If I was to be truly nationalistic when it comes to aircraft, all I could boast about is the Fletcher, a rather utilitarian one-seat crop-spraying plane (I’m a New Zealander). The Fletcher was well-regarded because it could be kept in the air with pieces of old Land Rover and a few spanners.
Still, I do try to take a certain pride in Airbus aircraft, the closest we have to British aircraft nowadays. That said, I find Boeings generally more comfortable to fly in; that is, until I take my first flight on an A380 this December with its wings and engines made right here in the UK.
I’ll keep you posted.

Thanks for that – I thought I’d seen comments about the Ashton being “First to Fly!” 🙁

The Comet, the Ashtons, the Avro Canada jetliner were all very close together – the Avro Canada C102 first flew 10 August 1949. All were pure-jet designs from the outset, the Ashton being a derivative of the Tudor (the Mk 9) with four turbojets and a nosewheel undercarriage. The Nene Viking first flew 6 April 1948, converted from the piston-engined production batch it was only a test machine.

Ashton Mk 1 – first flew September 1 1950. Pilot Jimmy Orell

Thanks for that – I thought I’d seen comments about the Ashton being “First to Fly!” 🙁

:diablo: When did the first Avro Ashton fly? :diablo:

http://www.newarkairmuseum.org/aircraftlist.htm

Ashton Mk 1 – first flew September 1 1950. Pilot Jimmy Orell

:diablo: When did the first Avro Ashton fly? :diablo:

http://www.newarkairmuseum.org/aircraftlist.htm

GSimons…

I think you’re a bit too touchy on the subject! Nobody was dumping on the Comet..it seems mrtotty was just stating the sad facts. Every aviation-mad schoolboy knows the disasters slowed the program to the advantage of other makers.

All serious avaition buffs recognize the Comet for its groundbreaking role in civil aviation.

No need to throw un-needed nationalism into your comments…you mentioned Boeing but forgot SUD, Airbus, the Soviet jets, Embraer, Canadair, AVRO Canada, Convair, Douglas…the jetliner world is made up of more than just Boeing.
Every civil jet maker should tip their hat to de Havilland and the Ministry of Supply for going ahead with the project.

It’s a pity that fate interviened as it did. It’s not always easy going first…but those of us who remember and care about such things will remember the huge role de Havilland played in the airliner field.

PS…no need to trash the Boeing..of the accidents you listed several were not the fault of the AC…(a bomb, being shot down by the USSR, flying into mountains…) But a couple…flying into a storm and failure to getto flying speed match early Comet crashes. The rules of aviation safety have little to do with nationalism.

Sure I’m touchy… but then, I remember a certain Channel Four TV programme of a few years back on the subject that was the biggest hatchet-job doing. I’ve also been to the Dulles Museum and seen the signage that accompanied the Dash 80 exibit – The world’s first jet airliner’. They even have ‘707’ painted on the tail of the damed thing!

I’m also sick and tired of everyone quoting the the Comet crashes whilst painting the Boeing aircraft design as being whiter than white. Sure… everyone learned – but at the cost of all the folks at Hatfield and elsewhere. Yes, Comets were lost to bombs…. they also flew into mountains. We lost one in Spain. But it all needs putting into context!

I’m in the business of recording history as accurately as possible – unless the Comet – and the folks at De Havilland – are defended in the correct manner, then those who now call the Douglas DC-3 the ‘Boeing DC-3’ – and the Boeing 717 that was really one of the last McD products will have changed future history to reflect nothing but corporate arrogance at claiming innacuracies brought about by things such as corporate publicity and take-overs!

And by the way, what’s wrong with a bit of pride in your countries achievements? – it beats the hell out of bland political correctness!

While I think about it, the Ghost Lancastrian also flew before the Comet; as a testbed for the Comet engines, and was technically a jet airliner, but as Graham rightly says, it was a conversion of an existing piston type.

Bruce

See this is where to my mind things get interesting and hence why I threw the spanner in the works.

The criteria and indeed the title of the thread is – “the world’s first jet airliner flies!” The Viking was designed as an airliner (the VC.1) and ‘JPH flew with jet engines from day one. So surely that makes it a jet airliner? It was designed as a jet, rolled off the production line as a jet and flew for something like 6 years as a jet – yet we are saying it isnt a jet airliner because Vickers started with an existing design?

I should add I am not trying to detract ANYTHING from the Comet, just having a good old debate 🙂

Jon

GSimons…

I think you’re a bit too touchy on the subject! Nobody was dumping on the Comet..it seems mrtotty was just stating the sad facts. Every aviation-mad schoolboy knows the disasters slowed the program to the advantage of other makers.

All serious avaition buffs recognize the Comet for its groundbreaking role in civil aviation.

“…something that Boeing can never lay claim to. We WERE the first!”

No need to throw un-needed nationalism into your comments…you mentioned Boeing but forgot SUD, Airbus, the Soviet jets, Embraer, Canadair, AVRO Canada, Convair, Douglas…the jetliner world is made up of more than just Boeing.
Every civil jet maker should tip their hat to de Havilland and the Ministry of Supply for going ahead with the project.

It’s a pity that fate interviened as it did. It’s not always easy going first…but those of us who remember and care about such things will remember the huge role de Havilland played in the airliner field.

PS…no need to trash the Boeing..of the accidents you listed several were not the fault of the AC…(a bomb, being shot down by the USSR, flying into mountains…) But a couple…flying into a storm and failure to getto flying speed match early Comet crashes. The rules of aviation safety have little to do with nationalism.

While I think about it, the Ghost Lancastrian also flew before the Comet; as a testbed for the Comet engines, and was technically a jet airliner, but as Graham rightly says, it was a conversion of an existing piston type.

Bruce

Sadly, the Comet 1 had a habit of breaking up in flight.
A beautiful-looking and ground-breaking aircraft to be sure, but what a shame it developed such a poor record just as the B707 was coming on stream.

Just? JUST???? Methinks someone needs to learn their history and check the correct timeline!

The De Havilland Comet one first flew 27th July 1949 – The Boeing 367-80 – a type two stages removed from the very first Boeing 707 design – was not even given go-ahead by the Boeing Board until April 1952 and two years after representative had visited Hatfield to look over things. This go-ahead was just a few days before the Comet entered scheduled passenger service with BOAC on May 2nd 1952.

The so-called ‘Dash 80’ was only just wide enough to seat two+two – IF airliner seats had been fitted. It had a fuselage diameter of 132 inches.

The Dash 80 was rolled out of the factory on May 15, 1954. It then undertook a series of taxi trials, which resulted in the port landing gear collapsing on May 22 causing damage to the airframe. The maiden flight took place July 15,1954. A series of test flights followed during which the most significant – and dangerous – issue discovered was a marked propensity to “Dutch roll” – an alternating yawing and rolling motion. This problem was to remain throughout the types and it’s successors life and was only cured with the installation of yaw dampers. Other problems were found with the engines and brakes, the latter failing completely during landing on one occasion causing the aircraft to overshoot the runway and suffer damage.

From the 367-80 design – which was unwanted by the airlines as having a ‘too small cabin width’, the US Military ordered a larger 144-inch fuselage diameter version, designated the Boeing 717, known in military parlance as the KC-135 tanker. Even this was too small for the airlines, and it was not until Boeing agreed to Pan-Amercian request to widen the fuselage to 148 inches that the true 707 appeared.

True, the Comet I did suffer a series of catastrophic failures of the fuselage due to the then little-to unknown phenomenon of metal fatigue in 1954 caused by repeated pressurisation cycles. De Havilland investigated the matter thoroughly, completely re-designed the type from the ground up, which emerged as the De Havilland Comet 4. They also made their discoveries freely available to other manufacturers, including Boeing. John Cunningham was later to state that, according to representatives from American manufacturers such as Boeing and Douglas they “…admitted that if it hadn’t been for our problems, it would have happened to one of them”

The new Comet 4 first flew on 27 April 1958. The first flight of the first production 707-120 took place on December 20, 1957, and FAA certification followed on September 18, 1958.

BOAC’s Comet 4 G-APDC initiated the first transatlantic jet service and the first scheduled transatlantic passenger jet service in history, flying from London to New York with a stopover at Gander on 4 October 1958. Rival Pan Am’s inaugural 707 service began three weeks later.

Incidentally, like so many detractors of the Comet, – especially many Americans – you make mention of the Comet crashes, but fail to mention that the Boeing 707 had a far-from-perfect safety record, as this quick trawl through Wikipedia shows! These are just SOME of the noticeable accidents!

On October 19, 1959, A Boeing 707-227 crashed northeast of Arlington, Washington while on a test flight for Braniff International Airways. Four people were killed in the crash, and four survived.

On February 15, 1961, Sabena Flight 548 crashed while on approach to Brussels Airport, Belgium. A total of 73 people were killed, including the entire United States Figure Skating team.

On March 1, 1962, American Airlines Flight 1 crashed into Jamaica Bay after taking off from Idlewild Airport (now JFK Airport) while heading for Los Angeles International Airport. All 95 people on board died.

On May 22, 1962, a bomb destroyed Continental Airlines Flight 11, killing everyone on board.

On December 8, 1963, Pan Am Flight 214 crashed outside Elkton, Maryland during a severe electrical storm, with a loss of all 81 passengers and crew. The Boeing 707-121 was on the final leg of a San Juan — Baltimore — Philadelphia flight.

On January 24, 1966, an Air India 707-437 flying Flight 101 crashed into Glacier des Bossons on the SW face of Mont Blanc in the French Alps. All 106 passengers and 11 crew were killed.

On March 6, 1966, BOAC Flight 911 broke up in flight due to severe turbulence and crashed into Mount Fuji.

On July 11, 1973 Varig Flight 820 on scheduled airline service from Galeão Airport, Rio de Janeiro, Brazil to Orly Airport, Paris, France made an emergency landing in a field in the Orly community due to smoke in the cabin. The fire, smoke and crash resulted in 123 deaths, with 11 survivors (10 crew, one passenger).

On November 3, 1973, Pan Am Flight 160, a 707 crashed on approach to Boston-Logan. Smoke in the cockpit caused the pilots to lose control. Three people were killed in the hull-loss accident.

On April 22, 1974, Pan Am Flight 812, a 707-321B crashed into a mountain while preparing for landing after a 4 hour 20 minutes flight from Hong Kong to Denpasar, Bali, Indonesia. All 107 people on board were killed.

On April 20, 1978, Korean Air Lines Flight 902 was targeted and shot by Sukhoi Su-15 interceptors after unintentionally penetrating Soviet airspace and made an emergency landing on a frozen lake near Murmansk, USSR. Two passengers were killed due to rapid decompression of the fuselage.

On October 13, 1983, a Bolivian 707 cargo jet crashed in Santa Cruz, Bolivia killing 91 (88 were killed on the ground when it crashed into a practice football game).

On January 3, 1987, Varig Flight 797 crashed when making a return to Abidjan, Côte d’Ivoire after one of its engines failed. One person survived.

On November 29, 1987, Korean Air Flight 858 exploded over the Andaman Sea, in the Indian Ocean in a terrorist attack with a bomb placed by North Korean agents. All 115 people on board died.

On February 8, 1989, Independent Air Flight 1851, a Boeing 707, crashed into a hill on approach to Santa Maria, Azores. All 144 people on board were killed.

On January 25, 1990, Avianca Flight 52 crashed after running out of fuel in Long Island, New York. The 707 was delayed numerous times because of a blizzard at New York. A total of 73 people died.

On October 23, 1996, a 707 belonging to the Argentinian Air Force crashed on take off roll after failing to achieve takeoff speed (V2) at Buenos Aires International Airport (EZE).

So stop rubbishing the Comet – and accept it for what it was – the world’s first jet airliner!

And yes, I know about the Nene Viking – Vickers designed it with piston power, unlike the Comet which was always planned as a jet!

Sadly, the Comet 1 had a habit of breaking up in flight.
A beautiful-looking and ground-breaking aircraft to be sure, but what a shame it developed such a poor record just as the B707 was coming on stream.

There is plenty of evidence that suggests that Boeing waited until the results of the Comet enquiries had been published before completing work on the 707. Indeed, the Comet 4 made the first transatlantic jet crossings hours before the 707.

Ultimately the 707 was the better aircraft; the Comet was too small, and had too much of a stigma around it.

However, both designs are still in active use today!

When did the Nene Viking fly?

Bruce